So, in my sociolinguistics class we're talking about (what else) Language and Power.

[conuly]

And the point was made that foreign students who want to get into an American university usually need about a 500-600 on the TOEFL, while American students who speak English as a second language can't take the TOEFL, they have to take the SAT and get 500+ on the verbal part.

But a 500 on the TOEFL is like a 200 on the verbal part of the SAT.

When foreigners are given some help on the English part of college admittance, this is seen as fair, but when it happens to American immigrants, it's seen as a "double standard".

Of course, it's obvious why this is. Those foreign students are usually better off than the American ones, and their families aren't the dregs of American society - they're not part of American society at all! So we can say "you're smart, even if your English isn't great". But the American ones are usually poor, and we've really got a vested interest in saying "you're poor because you can't do well". If we didn't say that, we'd have to say "you could do better if things were fair" and then we'd have to ask why they're poor still.

At least, that's my view of the situation, which I'm sure is really much more complicated.

Comments

[demonkoala.livejournal.com]

Funny how I am struggling with my SAT verbal when English is my first language. Perhaps my excuse is I've been away from this place too long, and I was exposed to no English aside from school, and mainly spoke Japanese at home anyways. Also high schools here prepare the kids for SAT. Eh.

[conuly]

Speaking English as a first language is no guarantee that you'll do well on the SAT. It just means that if you do badly, it means you really did badly.

[demonkoala.livejournal.com]

Gee, I feel so much better :P

[conuly]

No problem :)

[eofs.livejournal.com]

You could see it like that, but I see it as:

Immigrants are learning the language in an immersive environment, foreign students are learning in a classroom and from television. To have the same language expectation from the two is rather unfair because they're not coming from a level playing field. However I should think that once the foreign students are living in the US any deficiencies will begin to be corrected as they too are learning in the immersive culture.

But that's just me speaking from outside the situation.

[conuly]

Immigrants are learning the language in an immersive environment, foreign students are learning in a classroom and from television. To have the same language expectation from the two is rather unfair because they're not coming from a level playing field.

Except that this puts the English-as-a-second-language students on the same field as native speakers, and if that were the case they'd do comparatively well on the verbal part of the SATs, and they don't.

However I should think that once the foreign students are living in the US any deficiencies will begin to be corrected as they too are learning in the immersive culture.

Not so. After about age 15 or so your ability to learn a new language, even when immersed in it declines. Some people are always good at learning languages, some people are never good at learning languages, but somebody only being immersed in English at college age will NEVER catch up to native speakers.

There is a slight exception to this, apparently people who speak several languages find it easier to learn new ones, even later in life. But I can't prove that, I've just heard it somewhere.

[strangelette.livejournal.com]

To add to your theory. Foreign students are given absolutely no government financial aid and often very little merit based aid (depends quite a bit on the school - some give quite a bit others none). In almost all cases the student's parents/sponsor is required to send bank statements to prove that they can pay for the first year in full. American immigrants are eligable for all sorts of aid from the school and government.

[conuly]

So we've got a vested interest in keeping poorer Americans out of college.

[mortaine.livejournal.com]

One finds a similar dynamic in state schools: As an out of state student, I never received financial aid for the 3 years I attended state schools, despite the deep poverty my family was living in (roadkill soup), we were basically told to sell all our property (which wasn't available to sell) to afford my education.

I think Mom ended up robbing a bank, but I'm not really sure.

You ain't kidding.

[marveen.livejournal.com]

I went to a community college because we could afford nothing else--my grades were firmly around 3.3, not really high enough for merit-based scholarships, and our income was just high enough not to qualify for financial aid or need-based scholarships. I did get a couple smallish (the type that will just about pay for one quarter) scholarships purely because I got around 1490 or so on my SATs.

When I made an appointment with a financial-aid advisor, he asked why my parents didn't simply mortgage the house.

American culture of consumerism, I swear.

Re: You ain't kidding.

[rantinan.livejournal.com]

What blows my mind is when libertarians/extreme right republicans say that is a good thing.
As if having the money is the only thing you need to entitle you you an education.... *sighs*

Ok the frazzled student administration worker will shut up now.

[frogmajick.livejournal.com]

Sick and hurting and no real comment...just to say I like this post and am adding it to my memories.

[fascinoma.livejournal.com]

During the height of Affirmative Action, UCLA became mostly Asian nationals. It was easier for foreign students to get in, than Americans. The UC schools turned down non-minority students in favor of minorities, but American minorities *still* didn't have the grades to get in, and American non-minorities were completely fscked. It ended up working more in favor of well-off Asian nationals than either minority or non-minority Americans - it was totally screwed up.

[fascinoma.livejournal.com]

Yep - reinforces our covert caste system. Someone's got to work the shit jobs and be cannon fodder in Iraq.

[xiggaroo.livejournal.com]

Heyo Con. Go here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/xiggaroo/106805.html).

Please don't kill me for the cheesiness, I'm serious.

[conuly]

Did you see what I posted about Jenn?

true true true

[scottrossi.livejournal.com]

this is almost too true, it hurts.

[prezzey.livejournal.com]

That is, if they can get a visa. (Not an immigrant visa, just a simple visa.) Simply getting into your country isn't easy if one's not a terrorist but a law-abiding citizen. (It's easier for terrorists because they don't care about the law.)

A guy at our synagogue didn't get a visa, because they deemed him a terrorist risk. He's a Chasidic boy about my age and he wanted to study in an American yeshiva. That must be reeally dangerous! I have many horror stories on American visas but this one beats'em all. This guy who's easily the stereotype Chasidic Jew, his biggest problem is that the butter marketed as kosher next door isn't kosher because it contains E476 or whatever, he has a beard and sidecurls and all that, and he gets labelled a terrorist, of all people. Riight. (Maybe he aroused suspicion by being too Jewish to be real?) Anyway, he ended up going to a yeshiva in Israel.

Ever since 9-11, it's been hard to visit your country... (not that it was easy before) at least from Hungary, but I think it's more or less the same from other countries that aren't on the 'entry without visa' list. (There must be a specific word for that, but it eludes me at the moment.)

On something else:
in Hungary, your first degree is free, but that's a lie in large part because they twist and bend the regulations as they see fit. I'm double majoring which should be free if both majors are on the same university, but now they're demanding me to pay. I read all applicable laws and regulations, wrote a long paper explaining which regulations applied in my case, and they replied that they accept all that, but I must pay anyway. WTF?!
Is there a country where education is really free, I mean really really, not like "we say it's free but you have to pay anyway, just in case"?

One more thing that occurred to me (gosh this is getting to be long!): the United States has always wanted to change foreign countries to suit their image, and what better way than foreign students? Actually, this has happened in Hungary. Some of the 1989 revolutionaries went to American and British universities. Then they came back and... well, changed the regime. (The exact regime which paid for their scholarships, BTW.) Which suited American interests, of course. (I'm not saying this is a bad thing or a good thing, I'm just stating how it is seen around here.) Poor countries send their students to American universities and expect them to gather the know-how and come back to help their causes. What they don't realize is that in the United States, a rich country, these students are easily turned over to U.S. causes, even when they return to their homelands. There's actually a lot of intelligence/counterintelligence stuff going on, at least there used to be when Hungary was still a Communist country, so I think that it must be the same with current not-too-democratic countries as well. The Al-Q actually exploited this trend in a sense - they were welcome for the above reasons, but they didn't turn over to American causes as expected.

That was pretty long! I hope it was interesting. I think you're right in what you say, but there are other aspects that come to play in this situation, some I can see better because I'm overseas, just as you can see the interior aspects better because you're in the United States.

[conuly]

Even if education's free, it's not. That's why God invented taxes.

As for your friend, of course he's a terrorist threat. He speaks a funny language, and has a funny religion (and he's open about his religion! Gasp!) and...

Yeah.

[demonkoala.livejournal.com]

Funny how I am struggling with my SAT verbal when English is my first language. Perhaps my excuse is I've been away from this place too long, and I was exposed to no English aside from school, and mainly spoke Japanese at home anyways. Also high schools here prepare the kids for SAT. Eh.

[conuly]

Speaking English as a first language is no guarantee that you'll do well on the SAT. It just means that if you do badly, it means you really did badly.

[demonkoala.livejournal.com]

Gee, I feel so much better :P

[conuly]

No problem :)

[eofs.livejournal.com]

You could see it like that, but I see it as:

Immigrants are learning the language in an immersive environment, foreign students are learning in a classroom and from television. To have the same language expectation from the two is rather unfair because they're not coming from a level playing field. However I should think that once the foreign students are living in the US any deficiencies will begin to be corrected as they too are learning in the immersive culture.

But that's just me speaking from outside the situation.

[conuly]

Immigrants are learning the language in an immersive environment, foreign students are learning in a classroom and from television. To have the same language expectation from the two is rather unfair because they're not coming from a level playing field.

Except that this puts the English-as-a-second-language students on the same field as native speakers, and if that were the case they'd do comparatively well on the verbal part of the SATs, and they don't.

However I should think that once the foreign students are living in the US any deficiencies will begin to be corrected as they too are learning in the immersive culture.

Not so. After about age 15 or so your ability to learn a new language, even when immersed in it declines. Some people are always good at learning languages, some people are never good at learning languages, but somebody only being immersed in English at college age will NEVER catch up to native speakers.

There is a slight exception to this, apparently people who speak several languages find it easier to learn new ones, even later in life. But I can't prove that, I've just heard it somewhere.

[strangelette.livejournal.com]

To add to your theory. Foreign students are given absolutely no government financial aid and often very little merit based aid (depends quite a bit on the school - some give quite a bit others none). In almost all cases the student's parents/sponsor is required to send bank statements to prove that they can pay for the first year in full. American immigrants are eligable for all sorts of aid from the school and government.

[conuly]

So we've got a vested interest in keeping poorer Americans out of college.

[mortaine.livejournal.com]

One finds a similar dynamic in state schools: As an out of state student, I never received financial aid for the 3 years I attended state schools, despite the deep poverty my family was living in (roadkill soup), we were basically told to sell all our property (which wasn't available to sell) to afford my education.

I think Mom ended up robbing a bank, but I'm not really sure.

You ain't kidding.

[marveen.livejournal.com]

I went to a community college because we could afford nothing else--my grades were firmly around 3.3, not really high enough for merit-based scholarships, and our income was just high enough not to qualify for financial aid or need-based scholarships. I did get a couple smallish (the type that will just about pay for one quarter) scholarships purely because I got around 1490 or so on my SATs.

When I made an appointment with a financial-aid advisor, he asked why my parents didn't simply mortgage the house.

American culture of consumerism, I swear.

Re: You ain't kidding.

[rantinan.livejournal.com]

What blows my mind is when libertarians/extreme right republicans say that is a good thing.
As if having the money is the only thing you need to entitle you you an education.... *sighs*

Ok the frazzled student administration worker will shut up now.

[frogmajick.livejournal.com]

Sick and hurting and no real comment...just to say I like this post and am adding it to my memories.

[fascinoma.livejournal.com]

During the height of Affirmative Action, UCLA became mostly Asian nationals. It was easier for foreign students to get in, than Americans. The UC schools turned down non-minority students in favor of minorities, but American minorities *still* didn't have the grades to get in, and American non-minorities were completely fscked. It ended up working more in favor of well-off Asian nationals than either minority or non-minority Americans - it was totally screwed up.

[fascinoma.livejournal.com]

Yep - reinforces our covert caste system. Someone's got to work the shit jobs and be cannon fodder in Iraq.

[xiggaroo.livejournal.com]

Heyo Con. Go here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/xiggaroo/106805.html).

Please don't kill me for the cheesiness, I'm serious.

[conuly]

Did you see what I posted about Jenn?

true true true

[scottrossi.livejournal.com]

this is almost too true, it hurts.

[prezzey.livejournal.com]

That is, if they can get a visa. (Not an immigrant visa, just a simple visa.) Simply getting into your country isn't easy if one's not a terrorist but a law-abiding citizen. (It's easier for terrorists because they don't care about the law.)

A guy at our synagogue didn't get a visa, because they deemed him a terrorist risk. He's a Chasidic boy about my age and he wanted to study in an American yeshiva. That must be reeally dangerous! I have many horror stories on American visas but this one beats'em all. This guy who's easily the stereotype Chasidic Jew, his biggest problem is that the butter marketed as kosher next door isn't kosher because it contains E476 or whatever, he has a beard and sidecurls and all that, and he gets labelled a terrorist, of all people. Riight. (Maybe he aroused suspicion by being too Jewish to be real?) Anyway, he ended up going to a yeshiva in Israel.

Ever since 9-11, it's been hard to visit your country... (not that it was easy before) at least from Hungary, but I think it's more or less the same from other countries that aren't on the 'entry without visa' list. (There must be a specific word for that, but it eludes me at the moment.)

On something else:
in Hungary, your first degree is free, but that's a lie in large part because they twist and bend the regulations as they see fit. I'm double majoring which should be free if both majors are on the same university, but now they're demanding me to pay. I read all applicable laws and regulations, wrote a long paper explaining which regulations applied in my case, and they replied that they accept all that, but I must pay anyway. WTF?!
Is there a country where education is really free, I mean really really, not like "we say it's free but you have to pay anyway, just in case"?

One more thing that occurred to me (gosh this is getting to be long!): the United States has always wanted to change foreign countries to suit their image, and what better way than foreign students? Actually, this has happened in Hungary. Some of the 1989 revolutionaries went to American and British universities. Then they came back and... well, changed the regime. (The exact regime which paid for their scholarships, BTW.) Which suited American interests, of course. (I'm not saying this is a bad thing or a good thing, I'm just stating how it is seen around here.) Poor countries send their students to American universities and expect them to gather the know-how and come back to help their causes. What they don't realize is that in the United States, a rich country, these students are easily turned over to U.S. causes, even when they return to their homelands. There's actually a lot of intelligence/counterintelligence stuff going on, at least there used to be when Hungary was still a Communist country, so I think that it must be the same with current not-too-democratic countries as well. The Al-Q actually exploited this trend in a sense - they were welcome for the above reasons, but they didn't turn over to American causes as expected.

That was pretty long! I hope it was interesting. I think you're right in what you say, but there are other aspects that come to play in this situation, some I can see better because I'm overseas, just as you can see the interior aspects better because you're in the United States.

[conuly]

Even if education's free, it's not. That's why God invented taxes.

As for your friend, of course he's a terrorist threat. He speaks a funny language, and has a funny religion (and he's open about his religion! Gasp!) and...

Yeah.