More asshole atheists....

[conuly]

It's like these ignoramuses just spawned out of nowhere!

1. Whatever you think of people who hold a degree in theology or divinity, a thread about Jill Biden (who, having delivered a baby and received a doctorate is surely allowed to style herself Dr. Biden) is not the place to say that people with degrees in those subject are all frauds.

2. With that said, whether or not you approve of the subject, earning a degree in either of those does not require you to believe in any particular religion or deity(s) and does require you to do rather more than simply read the Bible a few times and then pray about it.

3. No matter how silly you think it is, the Bible is an important collection of historical documents.

4. Yes, religious texts have to do with history.

5. Yes, some parts of the "storytelling" parts of the Bible definitely correspond with verifiable, real-world historical events. Other parts, some of which never intended to be taken that way in the first place, definitely do not.

6. Saying "nuh-uh" a lot and really loudly puts you on about the same bar as Ken Ham, who thinks "were you there?" is a genius rebuttal to any and all comments about evolution. He is wrong. (If you ever meet anybody who tries that line, the correct answer is "Yes". They don't deserve a better answer.)

7. No, all religions are not identical, not even on a superficial level.

8. There are other reasons for people to point out the fact that you're an asshole and an ignoramus than because they (I) want to convert you to Christianity. For example, it could be that you're an asshole and an ignoramus. That's true even when the person saying it has been an atheist her whole life. You are making the rest of us look bad.

9. Unrelatedly, but it's the same twerp - when you snidely ask "Would you write a dissertation about Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and somebody responds "Many people do, every year", the number of times you can say "REALLY?" is exactly once. You shouldn't do it at all, but for you, we'll set the bar low. Following up your series of "Are you sures?" with "But you actually mean this other, lesser paper" is a hanging offense.

**************

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Comments

[calimac]

My answer to an irrelevant "Were you there?" is "Were you?" i.e. they have no standing with which to dismiss a scientific analysis.

[conuly]

No, if you say that then they go "No, but I have a book written by somebody who was" and pull out their Bible, which just goes to show that they, amazingly, are even more ignorant than the atheist I quarrelled with today. Well, it's a tie - his conviction that he's the smartest person in that thread loses him a lot of points.

But if you say "I was there" then they don't have a canned response to fall back on, and if they try you can go "You wouldn't know, you weren't there - I'd remember you" and walk off.

[alexseanchai]

hee hee hee hee

[calimac]

I've not engaged in Biblical arguments with Biblical literalists, so your caution, though well-taken, doesn't apply. I am not, in any case, very good at putting across the surreal, in which category I'd class your reply.

[conuly]

If you spend enough time on forums with well-educated (usually not asshole) atheists who enjoy talking about religion and science, you end up spending a LOT of time handling biblical literalists. It's weird.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Some people can better summon the uncanny to nail that particular rhetoric flourish.

I await the year 95 BtVS dissertations are defended, so they can be nailed to Joss in effigy.

[conuly]

Which is the effigy, the dissertations or Joss?

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Due to the expense of publishing, the dissertations will be represented in any destructive act by abstract.

However if Joss is represented by a piñata, then actual dissertations can attend with their minted doctor wielding them.

[alexseanchai]

the claim that all religions are identical is particularly hilarious coming from someone whose sole experiences of religion are either Christianity or the rejection thereof. Christianity is a major outlier in many ways! its sheer popularity is actually one of those ways.

[calimac]

Now that is a discussion I have taken part in. I've seen Christians stunned in amazement at the statement that other religions do not necessarily communicate their insights in the form of specific divine revelations.

[james]

When I was in college there was a course offered - The Bible as Literature and it was super fascinating. I barely remember it as distinct from my philosophy of religion courses, but it was nice to have a group of people all looking at it as a historical novel/collection of essays, etc, and talking about what it meant historically and analogically and so on.

Mostly it was a relief for me to discover not everyone was a close-minded Southern Baptist and I could stop faking it.

[conuly]

Your icon taunts me.

[silveradept]

I took a similar course from my university, from someone who could explain both the theological components and the historical ones and also tie it all together nicely in a bow with good arguments as to why these things are in, those are out, and why it's ordered the way it is so as to make it a work of theological, historical, and literary value. Fascinating course, incredible professor. (Also a particular reason why I know there's much more sex and violence in it than most fundamentalists will cop to.)

[bibliofile]

I wanted to take that course but didn't (or rather, haven't yet). ETA: I was so happy that such a course existed, and I'm slightly envious.

It's good to find out that not everyone is a close-minded [category] sooner rather than later.

[cactuswatcher]

My biggest gripe with some militant, ex-fundamentalist-Christian, atheists is that they've started asking, ala televangelists, for donations to further their cause, outreach or in my words "ministry."

My sister is a Doctor of Divinity. Her children, long since grown, refer to her as Dr. Mom. Yes, she finished her degree and I did not finish my PhD dissertation so I have no problem with recognizing, that it takes some doing to get a doctorate even in divinity.

I probably am more critical of the Bible than you, but just because I'd like to wring the necks of a number of televangelists, and privately shake my head at the thought of those people who insist they believe it word for word, doesn't mean I allow myself to attack it publicly willy nilly.

[conuly]

The Bible is an important collection of historical documents. I honestly don't think this is a position that usually needs defending, no matter what people think about the content therein.

I also suspect that you, like most of us, can draw a distinction between the grifters and the fundiegelical crowd and all those Christians who aren't them.

[rhoda_rants]

The discourse about First Doctor, Jill Biden (I saw someone make that comment on Twitter and I love it) is infuriating, but I had not seen this particular bad take before. Blech.

re: 5, correct me if I'm misinterpreting this, but the dismissal of "storytelling" as a useful tool for ethics, morality, etc. whether not the story being told corresponds to an actual, historical event is ALSO infuriating. Like, that's missing the whole point of stories. For me, the value of stories goes FAR beyond whether the thing is historically accurate. It has value because of how it makes you feel, what it teaches you about how the central characters interact with each other, and what that tells you about the storyteller's point of view.

[conuly]

1. There were two of them in that thread!

2. Oh, god, yeah. "Might as well have a doctorate in fairies" is an exact quote, and actually the part of it that got me involved, because a "doctorate in fairies" would be folklore studies.

[moon_custafer]

Sounds as though apart from everything else, this person is a STEMlord who doesn’t get the point of the humanities/thinks they’re frivolous extras for those who can’t hack SCIENCE! courses?

Is Dr. Biden’s degree even in Theology/Divinity? I thought it was in Education, which would just make this whole thing even more of a sidetrack.

[conuly]

Yeah, you picked up on that too, did you?

And yes, her degree is in Education, she's a teacher. And yes, it's wildly inappropriate to pull in "BUT SOME PEOPLE HAVE DIVINITY DEGREES AND THAT'S STUPID!" when nobody you're talking about is one of those.

[moon_custafer]

I wonder if all they approach all conversations that way:

“Hey, what would you like for lunch?”
“Anything, as long as it’s not religious!”

“I’m thinking of buying a new car. Is Honda still making good vehicles?”
“IDK, but some people who drive cars go to church and that sucks!”

[mindstalk]

"Carthago delenda est"

[rhoda_rants]

STEMlord!! ♥

[rhoda_rants]

Folklore studies is a legit field and rad as hell. I think you mentioned this before (or at least somebody did), but having some knowledge of folklore for the specific culture you're studying is extremely useful for historical context. The mythology a given culture adheres to can tell you SO MUCH about what life was like for them in a particular time period/geographical location/etc.

[thewayne]

I'm not religious. My choice. I do have a fairly thorough backing in the Bible and Christianity from attending church for my first 20~ years. And some people have said of me "You're the best Christian that I know!" While I try to be a good person, it still kinda shocked me. But the hyper-religious - or hyper-athiest - can be truly offensive people. They don't seem to be able to rest without converting everyone to their viewpoint, which they'll never succeed at.

Makes you think they've designed and are living in their own Purgatory.

If you want to be religious, fine. Just don't try to force me to be one of you. And if claim to be a Christian - as some 98% of members of Congress claim to be, you'd better do a decent job of demonstrating what's taught in what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount, or I'll continue calling you a hypocrite.

[ioplokon]

Just send them to go argue with some Jesuits; then at least a good time is being had by all :p

But yeah, I would say a pretty big chunk of people who do any work on vulgate Latin or koine Greek are Divinity students (since Classicists skew older and some of it is a bit early for medievalists), so even beyond the theological/doctrinal contributions (which, of course, are not useless to their faith communities - or at least, not more useless than most grad student work...), there's interesting historical/linguistic work being done.

[conuly]

I'm sure the Jesuits prefer people who actually argue rather than repeat variations on "You're wrong" over and over again.

[silveradept]

It seems like the appropriate response to troll them with is "Christ, you're an asshole" and then tell them in very small words how silly they are to think that was a religious statement, when all you were doing was uttering a common cultural expression.

[gatheringrivers]

1. Whatever you think of people who hold a degree in theology or divinity, a thread about Jill Biden (who, having delivered a baby and received a doctorate is surely allowed to style herself Dr. Biden) is not the place to say that people with degrees in those subject are all frauds.

Because as someone (very paraphrased) put it recently, "naked First Ladies are fine, SMART First Ladies aren't"

(Which may have been you, I can't remember right now, frustration brain from fighting with one of my machines.)

huzzah

[bibliofile]

Exasperating as the inspiration for this post must be, the conversation here is pretty good. "Yes, I WAS there"! "STEMlord!" Joss Whedon in effigy!

[adafrog]

(If you ever meet anybody who tries that line, the correct answer is "Yes". They don't deserve a better answer.)
lolol

2. Maybe they think that because some newer branches of protestantism don't require their pastors to have any formal schooling. At all. (I will try to leave my bitterness at the door).