He let us out early, because we actually managed to finish the subject.

[conuly]

*laughs*

We were discussing the Cartesian Circle, which is how Descartes' theory got into trouble. Basically, Descartes says that even if there's an evil force out there making stuff up, the one thing this force can't make up is that he exists. Which makes sense. It's hard to believe that you're making something think that he or she exists when really they don't.

And then Descartes says that this evil demon can't make him think of things with more reality than exists in nature. Or something. Basically, ideas come from something, and they can't come from something with less reality than the thing the idea is about. An evil demon can make you believe in things less real than the evil demon, but he can't make you believe in an infinite god. So god must exist. And since god isn't a deciever, the real world must exist too.

Except how do you know that ideas can't come from nothing? Because if they could, god would be a deceiver. Yeah, but weren't you trying to prove god exists?

Anyway, the professor went over this several times, with three different projector screens, so that even the slowest student would understand how this is a vicious circle. I played freecell. Just when I was starting to wonder if these precautions were really necessary...

Professor
You know who
Me

P: So, you can see it's a circle. Any questions?
Y: So... it's a circle...
P: Yes.
Y: Is that bad?
M: *blink*
P: Yes, it's bad. Because then you haven't proven anything.
Y: But no, it's good! It's how you prove god exists!
M: *gigglesnorts, literally*

They spent a few minutes with the professor trying to explain why you can't prove god exists by saying that you know you aren't being deceived because that would mean god's a deceiver.

Sorry about the capitalization, me lazy.

Comments

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

*grins* Why shouldn't God be a deceiver? The Hindu assumption is that 'all this' is Maya, a grand illusion. There's Hermes, Loki, Pan, Raven and Coyote, all tricksters. Zeus and Odin both have a fondness for disguising themselves as mortals and wandering around messing with peoples' heads.

Jehovah did that whole trick with the tree: "You can eat anything you want except the fruit of THIS tree, because if you eat it you will die", then sending the serpent in to tell them that if they wouldn't die if they ate it - now, tell me THAT wasn't deceptive?

It seems to me that any anthropomorphization of the Universal Forces is necessarily going to have elements of deceptiveness... because if God is, or can be, a person, then why the heck doesn't he explain exactly what's going on? Taking form as a poor carpenter or wandering mystic or whatever doesn't count, and neither does appearing to some holy and/or crazy individuals where no one else can see - all that sort of thing is deceptive too.

Nope nope. If God is, or can be, a person, let's see God appear in indisputable Godlike glory, in public - hey, to everyone simultaneously, why not? - and explain How Things Are in clear and unambiguous terms.

It ain't gonna happen, because either God is a deceiver and likes to keep us guessing, or God isn't a person at all, and all these anthropomorphic analogies are invalid.