And I thought it could never be done.

[conuly]

But something has jumped to the top of my "most loathed conservative buzzwords" list above "personal responsibility*". It's "social engineering", which seems to mean... well, I'm not sure what they all think it means, actually, but they sure seem obsessed with the concept.

* It's not that I'm opposed to personal responsibility, per se. I just don't like the way certain parties use the term.

Comments

[redbird]

I thought that was jargon for all the "act like you're normal and they'll let you in" tricks spies, hackers, and con artists use to get into secure buildings, find out people's passwords, etc.

[kengr]

That's a different usage.

Politically, conservatives use it to describe programs that are trying to encourage some kinds of social behavior or alter society.

the "geek" version is about using social skills to "work a situation.

The political version is about trying to change society and/or social attitudes. And pretty much always used in a pejorative sense.

[sabotabby]

That's the usage I'm more familiar with, though I am also aware of the usage that conuly is talking about. Which sucks because the hacker version is terribly fun.

[conuly]

That usage is fine! The neocon usage seems to be "Gasp! Somebody is trying to figure out why girls drop out of stem programs! Won't they ever stop with their *dun dun DUN* social engineering!?"

[siderea]

That doesn't seem like reason to hate the term. That sounds deep in "you say that like it's a bad thing" territory.

[conuly]

Yeah, but now it's gone past that into pure redscreenofdoom.

[hudebnik]

Yup. See, cutting capital-gains taxes on billionaires because they're the "job creators", although most of their windfall actually goes to making themselves richer without creating any jobs, is just common sense. Cutting taxes on low-and-middle-class salaries, or imposing a minimum wage, in order to encourage work and consumer demand over financial speculation is "social engineering", and the next stop on that train is Maoism.

[conuly]

YES THAT.

*ragequit*

[flamingsword]

Like ... the employee payroll taxes ... wtf, why do those even exist? To keep small businesses from employing more people?

Does anyone know what kind of purpose that even served, historically?

[silveradept]

It sounds like it's being used as "some librul got people to do what they wanted, instead of my truth imparted directly from TurboJesus/Rand/The Market, all praise to its name."

[conuly]

Yup, pretty much.

[silveradept]

And since they're the ones with the monopoly on the truth, when someone gives them Inigo Montoya's second most famous quote, they get incensed.

[spikethemuffin]

I want to respond with Vezzini's fifth-most-famous quote: "Stop this now! I really mean it!"

[conuly]

Anybody want a peanut?

[spikethemuffin]

ARGH!

[author_by_night]

It's not that I'm opposed to personal responsibility, per se. I just don't like the way certain parties use the term.

Yeah. I think certain people assume that everyone's suffering is due to lack of personal responsibility. They also ignore the other factors. For instance, I know/know of someone with a mental illness who makes terrible choices. But... they have a mental illness. Which they can't afford to treat, because they don't have any money, because they've made those choices, because they're mentally ill. It's a terrible vicious cycle.

There is another person who I feel just makes... very dubious choices. But even then, I don't know her reasons. Maybe if I did, her side would make sense. Maybe not - maybe she's just truly entitled. However, people use people like her as a reason we shouldn't help anybody.And that's wrong. Should we not pay for public schooling because some kids drop out (while also ignoring the reasons kids end up dropping out that have nothing to do with laziness)? Should we not pay for road signs because some people ignore them?

Sorry, you set me on a rant I don't think you intended to.

[conuly]

No, by all means, keep ranting!

[author_by_night]

I just feel like it's actually a fine term WHEN used to apply to actual responsibility, bearing in mind that everyone's situation is different.

I have to admit it makes it difficult to discuss, though. I basically just don't, apart from posts like these which seem more open to them, because I feel like it's one of those conversations where you can easily inadvertently look like a jerk.

[conuly]

If I feel the need to discuss the matter of people being responsible for their own stuff, I just say... "responsibility". No need to shove "personal" in there.

[mindstalk]

Social engineering is funding public transit and raising parking prices to market levels and allowing denser building, unlike funding highways and home mortgage deductions and single-family zoning.

Or less snarkily, government policies with the intention of shaping society, except that the people using it have a skewed sense of the status quo. As an abstract idea it's correct to be skeptical of government constraining choice, even for a "greater good", but the people using the phrase tend to be fine with the constraints they like or take for granted. Probably similar to how freedom and state non-endorsement of religion gets perceived as persecution of Christians.

[archangelbeth]

Heh. My kid uses "social engineering" as well, but more in the "how to engineer society to work together to solve problems instead of screwing things up" sense. (They've had classes for probably close to a decade, in social skills, and now are... pretty darn good at consciously doing what neurotypicals sort of run with on instinct. Conscious is more energy intensive, but also lays a groundwork for thinking about how society works...)

(Also, same on "personal responsibility." WHICH SOME POLITICIANS COULD DO WITH. *COUGH*)

[hudebnik]

They teach classes in that stuff now? I could have used some of that, forty years ago....

[archangelbeth]

Semi-local place (around an hour away...), which had classes in Social Skills for autistic kids, yeah. Overall useful, though of course ya gotta get an instructor who "clicks." (And I'm concerned from their website they've gone too far towards some stuff that autistic teens and adults are REALLY down on, since. Which is boooo. On the other hand, it's also the technique that insurance companies pay for, so figuring out what people are really doing is... *shrug emoji, sigh*)

Well ...

[ysabetwordsmith]

It means making mindful changes to society. This is ordinarily a good thing; it's something I aim for, although the mainstream cares fuckall about that. I am sure that conservatives are not bent on making similar changes, and their desired changes would likely be appalling to me. But you know, it's like thermodynamics. That can send a rocket to the moon or burn down California.

[greghousesgf]

"Lifestyle" annoys me in general, but much more if it's being used by homophobes to indicate their usual disapproval bullshit.

[conuly]

That's just so overplayed that by now I can't even get worked up over it. I mean, it's an instablock, but other than that?

[notasupervillain]

There is a complex but important discussion to be had about the way systems affect our ability to freely make choices.

They are... Not using the term that way.

[conuly]

And, indeed, they never otherwise acknowledge that anything at all might affect the choices people make.

[notasupervillain]

All choices are freely made, and to suggest otherwise is un-american/un-british/basically Communism