*thought*

[conuly]

When speaking of Jews, we say in English that any particular person keeps or doesn't keep kosher. Do we use the same verb when speaking of Muslims, having to do with whether or not they only eat halal foods? (And why do we use "keep" in this context at all? We don't say people keep vegetarian or keep organic, we say they are vegetarian or they eat vegetarian, organic, etc.)

Comments

[gatheringrivers]

Maybe because "kosher" and "Halal" refers to a food status relative to the respective religion?

[conuly]

So you're yes on "keep halal"?

[alias_sqbr]

Hmm! Ok, based on my experiences being nominally Jewish, one theory: keeping kosher, at least in England, is to some extent an act of defiance: to keep kosher, and Jewish, despite the forces of assimilation. Judaism is a religion all about keeping things and not letting them be lost.

Theory 2: it's an artifact of the way language was used by Yiddish etc speakers who introduced the word into English.

[conuly]

Hm. The first sounds a little pat. Which doesn't mean it's wrong, just that I'd like confirmation. The second is more probable, I should think.

[robby]

Keep in this context is an old usage, meaning to "maintain a tradition".

ie: to keep a holiday

[conuly]

That makes sense, I suppose.

[melannen]

Keep Christmas was my first thought! (Which, these days usually only comes up via Dickens' A Christmas Carol.)

I wonder how much that usage is directly influenced from the King James translation's "Remember the Sabbath Day and keep it holy" turning into "Keep the Sabbath" turning into "Keep" being used to refer for religious practice in general (i.e. "Keeping the Hours" under the Benedictine rule or keeping the Lenten fast.) If it does parallel Yiddish, I bet it's because both English and Yiddish get it from Hebrew.

In which case I'd assume the reason it's used for Jewish observances but not Muslim or other religions is just that by the time Muslim observances became more relevant to most English speakers, that meaning had already mostly ossified out of common usage. (That said, I wouldn't consider "keep Halal" wrong or odd? But I don't think I've heard it before. And keeping Ramadan makes perfect sense to me.)

(except that the word 'keep' now has no meaning to me at all now.)

[dictionarywrites]

I think it is a thing we take up from the Yiddish, and thus from the Hebrew, that's just then been taken up into English. We usually think of loanwords and that kind of passed-on linguistic flourish as only being individual adjectives or nouns, but in this case it's the style of the phrase too.

It's actually cool how people's languages influence one another in general, especially because Yiddish speakers pretty much always speak other languages, and therefore you have that Yiddish influence on them.

It's a linguistic quirk you see when you look at the way you discuss language, too - if you talk to a Yiddish speaker (or an Irish speaker), you might say, "Do you have much Yiddish?", and it makes as much as sense as "Do you SPEAK Yiddish?" which would be typical of like, the average English-speaker.

[conuly]

Are you speculating, or do you speak Yiddish and/or Hebrew?

[calimac]

As another Jewish person with a bit of specific Yiddishkeit in my background, I endorse all this.

I also recall from my school German that "do you have much" is the phrasing that would be used in German, which is where Yiddish gets much of its vocabulary and grammar.

[redbird]

The question "Do you have much Yiddish?" implies that the other person has/is known to have at least a little. I'd be a lot more likely to say "I only have a little French" than "I don't have any Romanian."

(I only have bits of Yiddish, some nouns and adjectives, but that usage feels very normal to me--likely from the Yiddish and maybe Irish influences on New York City dialect.)

[jamethiel]

In Australia at least, I've heard co-workers asked "do you eat halal" or "do you observe halal?"

No idea if either of those is correct.

[pauamma]

Not Australian, but I'm more familiar with the former (and or its French equivalent).

[highlyeccentric]

Yes, the idiom is definitely 'observe' in Australian english, or 'eat' if the speaker is not well informed.

If I hear that someone 'keeps kosher' I will, unless given other information, assume that in addition to not eating certain foods, they will probably store their food differently (they may have two fridges, for instance). I have Jewish friends who do not eat bacon or shellfish, but who will clarify that they don't 'keep kosher', in order to indicate that their kitchens are not fully observant.

[scaramouche]

Chiming in with a data point, "keep halal" sounds very strange to me. In my circles the fastest shorthand is just to say that someone is a practising Muslim, and elaborate on where they/your personal lines are, because what "counts" as halal is so varied as well.

[conuly]

I don't think I'd say that somebody is a practicing Muslim, I'd say they're observant (or not). With, perhaps, a qualifier such as "traditionally" or "strictly" if it seems to be necessary.

Well ...

[ysabetwordsmith]

Maybe it's like "keep the Commandments" or "keep the Sabbath" ...?

Re: Well ...

[conuly]

Maybe. Is that a good translation from the original? The KJV is weird, isn't it?

[senmut]

I only ever heard my Muslim friend ask why I 'eat halal', back when I was in the army. (I had a bad reaction to standard MREs. They put me on the vegetarian/halal/kosher list so I could continue to eat)

But that was in reference to ME, a known pagan, and I do not know the terminology they use within their culture.

[conuly]

Still, it's a data point.

[oursin]

From things I have read, i.e. no direct experience, I have the sense that 'kosher' pertains not just to the actual food but to a whole range of food-related practices, e.g. separate sets of dishes and implements for different foods?

[sabotabby]

In my family, that is the case.

I agree with the others; "keep halal" seems like awkward phrasing. But generally it comes up in the context of group food things, so it's usually, "is this halal?" or "do you have halal burgers?" or, in one of my proudest moments as a teacher, "hey kids, I brought halal marshmallows for your marshmallow trebuchets!"

[redbird]

Another thought (in addition to the influence of "they keep a kosher kitchen"): The usage "Do you eat kosher?" would parallel "do you eat meat?" and most people, regardless of their own practices or whether they're Jewish, are willing to eat kosher food, even if they don't seek it out. Someone who keeps kosher is eating only kosher food (however they're defining that), while other people cheerfully buy either kosher or non-kosher baked goods.

[conuly]

IDK, did you hear the ridiculous nonsense among the far-right over Toblerone simply acknowledging that their chocolate is, of course, halal?

[thekumquat]

I think part of it is likely the alliteration of "keep kosher", but also the fact that keeping kosher involves housekeeping issues (separating milk and meat utensils, etc) which eating halal doesn't - while halal the word means what is permitted and not haram (forbidden), it's usually used in questions only about food, unless you're getting into a deep theological debate.

[conuly]

I think we'd better stick to deep linguistics debate - I know very little about comparative theology.

[the_rck]

Well, 'keeping the Sabbath' is a way to talk about Christian observances in terms of Sunday services and reading scripture and so on. I had always assumed the usage was similar on the religious side and possibly connected to 'keeping house' in terms of relating to concepts of management and cleanliness.

[bitterlawngnome]

I'll add a voice to the chorus, it's "keep" in an archaic usage
to maintain (some action), especially in accordance with specific requirements, a promise, etc.: to keep watch; to keep step.

Also there's a category difference.

Halal means "what is permitted" and refers to all manner of things, not just food, and is understood as the opposite of haram, forbidden (a more nuanced elaboration is ""mandatory, recommended, neutral, reprehensible, and forbidden", with substantial disagreement between sects about which word covers which category).

Kosher is food which is fit to eat under halacha, ie specifically permitted.

[bitterlawngnome]

Although now that I think of it, there's kosher mikvah, which is a ritual bath. So maybe not just food?

[agoodwinsmith]

Apparently from old English cepan (with a bar over the E): to observe or to seize or to watch or to take.

"Keep" is one of those busy words that wants to have it all.

[conuly]

I wonder if that's related to Latin capo, capere at all?

[amaebi]

In the Hebrew Bible, the verb shin-mem-resh is typically used for proper human relationship with the Law. Its English translation is any of keep, guard, or watch.

[mme-n-b.livejournal.com]

I think it's because kashrut is a law, and the Jewish law is a covenant, a promise. So, we keep kosher in the same way as we'd keep a promise. With vegetarianism no promise is involved.

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

This. People do also speak of keeping halal (https://www.rewardsnetwork.com/blog/mean-keep-kosher-halal/), for the same reason.