*thought*

[conuly]

When speaking of Jews, we say in English that any particular person keeps or doesn't keep kosher. Do we use the same verb when speaking of Muslims, having to do with whether or not they only eat halal foods? (And why do we use "keep" in this context at all? We don't say people keep vegetarian or keep organic, we say they are vegetarian or they eat vegetarian, organic, etc.)

Comments

[gatheringrivers]

Maybe because "kosher" and "Halal" refers to a food status relative to the respective religion?

[alias_sqbr]

Hmm! Ok, based on my experiences being nominally Jewish, one theory: keeping kosher, at least in England, is to some extent an act of defiance: to keep kosher, and Jewish, despite the forces of assimilation. Judaism is a religion all about keeping things and not letting them be lost.

Theory 2: it's an artifact of the way language was used by Yiddish etc speakers who introduced the word into English.

[robby]

Keep in this context is an old usage, meaning to "maintain a tradition".

ie: to keep a holiday

[dictionarywrites]

I think it is a thing we take up from the Yiddish, and thus from the Hebrew, that's just then been taken up into English. We usually think of loanwords and that kind of passed-on linguistic flourish as only being individual adjectives or nouns, but in this case it's the style of the phrase too.

It's actually cool how people's languages influence one another in general, especially because Yiddish speakers pretty much always speak other languages, and therefore you have that Yiddish influence on them.

It's a linguistic quirk you see when you look at the way you discuss language, too - if you talk to a Yiddish speaker (or an Irish speaker), you might say, "Do you have much Yiddish?", and it makes as much as sense as "Do you SPEAK Yiddish?" which would be typical of like, the average English-speaker.

[jamethiel]

In Australia at least, I've heard co-workers asked "do you eat halal" or "do you observe halal?"

No idea if either of those is correct.

[scaramouche]

Chiming in with a data point, "keep halal" sounds very strange to me. In my circles the fastest shorthand is just to say that someone is a practising Muslim, and elaborate on where they/your personal lines are, because what "counts" as halal is so varied as well.

[pauamma]

Not Australian, but I'm more familiar with the former (and or its French equivalent).

Well ...

[ysabetwordsmith]

Maybe it's like "keep the Commandments" or "keep the Sabbath" ...?

[conuly]

Are you speculating, or do you speak Yiddish and/or Hebrew?

[conuly]

I don't think I'd say that somebody is a practicing Muslim, I'd say they're observant (or not). With, perhaps, a qualifier such as "traditionally" or "strictly" if it seems to be necessary.

[dictionarywrites]

I have some Yiddish, but not much! I'm okay for basic spoken stuff and phrases, not so much for big debates, I'm afraid, so I definitely wouldn't call myself a scholar in that respect.

[calimac]

As another Jewish person with a bit of specific Yiddishkeit in my background, I endorse all this.

I also recall from my school German that "do you have much" is the phrasing that would be used in German, which is where Yiddish gets much of its vocabulary and grammar.

[senmut]

I only ever heard my Muslim friend ask why I 'eat halal', back when I was in the army. (I had a bad reaction to standard MREs. They put me on the vegetarian/halal/kosher list so I could continue to eat)

But that was in reference to ME, a known pagan, and I do not know the terminology they use within their culture.

[highlyeccentric]

Yes, the idiom is definitely 'observe' in Australian english, or 'eat' if the speaker is not well informed.

If I hear that someone 'keeps kosher' I will, unless given other information, assume that in addition to not eating certain foods, they will probably store their food differently (they may have two fridges, for instance). I have Jewish friends who do not eat bacon or shellfish, but who will clarify that they don't 'keep kosher', in order to indicate that their kitchens are not fully observant.

[conuly]

So you're yes on "keep halal"?

[jamethiel]

Yeah, my orthodox Jewish friends in high school (although by not going to [well known school], they were probably relatively reform) had separate kitchens and plates and said they "kept" kosher.

A less observant friends would just kinda... avoid knowingly eating pork products or shellfish but would take a chance on an unknown sausage, for instance. He would also identify as Jewish, but say that he didn't keep kosher.

[conuly]

That makes sense, I suppose.

[conuly]

Hm. The first sounds a little pat. Which doesn't mean it's wrong, just that I'd like confirmation. The second is more probable, I should think.

Re: Well ...

[conuly]

Maybe. Is that a good translation from the original? The KJV is weird, isn't it?

[conuly]

Still, it's a data point.

[alias_sqbr]

I have no source but my half awake ponderings, so am inclined to go for theory 2 as well :)

[oursin]

From things I have read, i.e. no direct experience, I have the sense that 'kosher' pertains not just to the actual food but to a whole range of food-related practices, e.g. separate sets of dishes and implements for different foods?

[sabotabby]

In my family, that is the case.

I agree with the others; "keep halal" seems like awkward phrasing. But generally it comes up in the context of group food things, so it's usually, "is this halal?" or "do you have halal burgers?" or, in one of my proudest moments as a teacher, "hey kids, I brought halal marshmallows for your marshmallow trebuchets!"

[elainegrey]

Google's nGram viewer depicts how the phrases "keep Christmas" and "keep Easter" used to be prevalent, in line with the fourth definition of "keep."

4 honor or fulfill (a commitment or undertaking): I'll keep my promise, naturally.
• observe (a religious occasion) in the prescribed manner: today's consumers do not keep the Sabbath.
• pay due regard to (a law or custom).


https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=keep+Christmas%2C+keep+Easter%2C+keep+kosher&case_insensitive=on&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t4%3B%2Ckeep%20Christmas%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bkeep%20Christmas%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BKeep%20Christmas%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BKEEP%20CHRISTMAS%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Ckeep%20Easter%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2Ckeep%20kosher%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bkeep%20kosher%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bkeep%20Kosher%3B%2Cc0

[redbird]

The question "Do you have much Yiddish?" implies that the other person has/is known to have at least a little. I'd be a lot more likely to say "I only have a little French" than "I don't have any Romanian."

(I only have bits of Yiddish, some nouns and adjectives, but that usage feels very normal to me--likely from the Yiddish and maybe Irish influences on New York City dialect.)