High school admissions results came back
Apr. 3rd, 2018 05:25 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
conulyWhich means, predictably, that everybody unhappy with their results is bitching and moaning like you wouldn't believe. After reading their complaints about the "mysterious algorithm" that sorts kids into schools I've come to the conclusion that these people don't know what the word algorithm means.
All we mean when we say algorithm is "a set of steps used to solve a problem". For example, if you need to find out why your three month old is crying you might first check the diaper, then offer her the breast, then pat her back to see if she needs to spit up, then try putting her to nap. If you want to wash your hair you'll first wet your hair, then lather up some soap into your hair, then rinse it all out and repeat as necessary.
The algorithm used here is not that mysterious at all. In fact, I'd say it's comprehensible to literate people who grasp arithmetic and basic algebra, but....
I mean, these are people who routinely claim that the problem with NYC schools is that 80% of them aren't in the top 20th percentile, or that there must be a solution where every single student gets into their top-ranked school. (There are two solutions, but they don't like either one of those. The first is to cram them in until the building bursts, and the second is to give up on school choice altogether in which case your zoned school is, perforce, your first and only choice.) I'm not sure math is their strong point.
These people also all think that there must be some way for the DoE to magically create more schools all students want to attend. Well, all the in-demand schools have one thing in common: their students get good grades and good SAT scores. Students who get good grades and SAT scores would, in general, do just as well at almost any school. It may benefit them somewhat to be lumped together, but it does no good for the other students or the system as a whole. Which is why the DoE, quite sensibly, is trying to cut down on the number of schools that screen for academics. Because it's better for all the kids to be more mixed. (Not that these people want to hear that. They never say so quite so bluntly, but they mostly think that low-achieving students don't deserve good schools, or at least that their need for good schools doesn't need to be addressed until the star students are all in really really great schools.)
Finally: If your kid feels miserable and "like a failure" because she got into school 4 on her list instead of into school 1 - I get that the whole process is stressful and it comes during a really emotional time in your child's life, but buying into all this? It's not helping. Instead of ranting and raving about how the DoE has ruined your child's life, get some freaking perspective, and maybe encourage your child to stop looking for outside validation.
All we mean when we say algorithm is "a set of steps used to solve a problem". For example, if you need to find out why your three month old is crying you might first check the diaper, then offer her the breast, then pat her back to see if she needs to spit up, then try putting her to nap. If you want to wash your hair you'll first wet your hair, then lather up some soap into your hair, then rinse it all out and repeat as necessary.
The algorithm used here is not that mysterious at all. In fact, I'd say it's comprehensible to literate people who grasp arithmetic and basic algebra, but....
I mean, these are people who routinely claim that the problem with NYC schools is that 80% of them aren't in the top 20th percentile, or that there must be a solution where every single student gets into their top-ranked school. (There are two solutions, but they don't like either one of those. The first is to cram them in until the building bursts, and the second is to give up on school choice altogether in which case your zoned school is, perforce, your first and only choice.) I'm not sure math is their strong point.
These people also all think that there must be some way for the DoE to magically create more schools all students want to attend. Well, all the in-demand schools have one thing in common: their students get good grades and good SAT scores. Students who get good grades and SAT scores would, in general, do just as well at almost any school. It may benefit them somewhat to be lumped together, but it does no good for the other students or the system as a whole. Which is why the DoE, quite sensibly, is trying to cut down on the number of schools that screen for academics. Because it's better for all the kids to be more mixed. (Not that these people want to hear that. They never say so quite so bluntly, but they mostly think that low-achieving students don't deserve good schools, or at least that their need for good schools doesn't need to be addressed until the star students are all in really really great schools.)
Finally: If your kid feels miserable and "like a failure" because she got into school 4 on her list instead of into school 1 - I get that the whole process is stressful and it comes during a really emotional time in your child's life, but buying into all this? It's not helping. Instead of ranting and raving about how the DoE has ruined your child's life, get some freaking perspective, and maybe encourage your child to stop looking for outside validation.
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Date: 2018-03-29 08:23 pm (UTC)I am sure it isn't.
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Date: 2018-03-29 11:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-03-30 08:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-03-30 03:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-03-31 01:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-03-31 05:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-03-31 06:32 am (UTC)Preach it!
Date: 2018-03-29 08:41 pm (UTC)Re: Preach it!
Date: 2018-03-29 09:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-03-29 09:24 pm (UTC)The most favorable interpretation I can come up with here is that the complainers have been hearing about the genuinely mysterious algorithms produced by some neural networks, and about the way that supposedly neutral algorithms can encode or reinforce prejudice. Not only do many people not know what an algorithm is, they may not have heard the word in a neutral or positive context in a long time. Then combine that with the common feeling of "I don't like the result, therefore there's something wrong with the system," and it's easy to assume that the problem is "the algorithm" rather than "the city doesn't have an infinite education budget" or even "a lot of other people live in walking distance of that school so there's a lot of competition for those places."
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Date: 2018-03-29 10:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-03-29 10:15 pm (UTC)San Francisco does something similar (and people definitely also complain), but recently phased in a feeder system for middle schools (although one can still apply to middle schools other than your designated feeder).
When I describe the high school application process to my friends who live in the suburbs, they boggle at the complexity. And it is definitely very stressful for both parents and kids. But it seems a much better process than we had when I was applying to high school in the city, which was based on ethnic quotes and later ruled unconstitutional.
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Date: 2018-03-29 10:27 pm (UTC)Basically, the city has been moving away from zoning as much as possible in the past few years. The younger you are, the more likely it is that you have a zoned preference option, but at all levels there are fewer and fewer zoned only programs (except in some heavily populated or oversubscribed areas - good luck getting an out-of-zone spot in a District 2 school!), and on the high school level only a very few students have a zoned guarantee option that takes all students in the zone no matter what. (Staten Island is the exception here - we have all our old large schools, and every one of them has a zoned guarantee program.)
The results have given me a fairly jaundiced view of school choice. Done poorly, it replicates all the problems of zoning and then some. That's what's largely happened in NYC. I can think of solutions, but they involve $$$$$
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Date: 2018-03-30 08:42 pm (UTC)It sounds fairly similar to what SF has done. There are no guaranteed zoning-based options at any level, and no zoned-only schools, although for elementary school there's a zoned preference that's taken into account -- that is, if your neighborhood school is on the list of schools you're applying to, your chances of getting a spot there are higher (by some degree) than the chances of an equivalent applicant who is out-of-zone. (Of course, SF is a MUCH smaller city than NYC, in terms of both population and geography, so even the farthest possible school is likely to be ~30 min by car / an hour by public transit.)
For middle schools, the application process used to be the same, but in the last ~7 years they converted to the feeder system, where 3-4 elementary schools feed into a pre-ordained middle school, and if you put that feeder school as your first choice on the middle school application, you're guaranteed admission. But students can definitely apply to middle schools that aren't their feeder, and based on anecdotal evidence I've heard, it seems like you're likely to get your top choice even with the more in-demand middle schools (well, except the K-8 schools, which I don't think open up any extra slots for other than their own students).
At the high school level, zoning is not taken into account at all. But there are two high schools that do merit-based admissions -- the academic magnet school (which I attended and my kids currently attend) and the small arts magnet school which does auditions-based admissions.
Oh, and younger siblings are guaranteed a spot if they list their older sib's school as their first choice, except for the two schools that do the academics/arts based admissions.
I'm not sure if NYC ends up having this happen, too, but here the effect of not being able to count on zoning-based preference means that many parents also apply to tons of private schools while waiting for SFUSD to send out school assignments at the elementary and high school level, which means multiple school visits and applications and basically like a college search in miniature. Which, good practice I guess, but man it was stressful juggling different tests and essay questions and whatnot...
Done poorly, it replicates all the problems of zoning and then some.
In my experience as well, sadly. :( Although, I do feel like after decades of grappling with it, SFUSD is maaaybe making some steps in the right direction, at least as far as a system that is not actively hated by a majority of people affected by it. Still a long way to go, though.
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Date: 2018-03-30 08:58 pm (UTC)Yes, NYC has the largest public school system in the nation.
Oh, and younger siblings are guaranteed a spot if they list their older sib's school as their first choice, except for the two schools that do the academics/arts based admissions.
In NYC there's sibling priority for elementary schools, but not after that.
(Of course, SF is a MUCH smaller city than NYC, in terms of both population and geography, so even the farthest possible school is likely to be ~30 min by car / an hour by public transit.)
Here, the DOE doesn't even consider you eligible for a transfer based on an unreasonable commute unless you're at 75 minutes or more - one way.
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Date: 2018-03-30 09:41 pm (UTC)Oh wow, ouch. That's 2.5 hours a day of less sleep/homework time/fun time :(
My brother and I AND my kids have been lucky in that we've lived basically walking distance to all our schools. The kids' elementary school was a 10 min walk away, 15 min walk/5 min drive for the middle school, and the high school is a little farther -- 35 min walk (or about equivalent bus ride) or a 10 min drive. That's definitely not the case for everyone here, but the only kids I know with >1 hr commute are those going to private school outside their home cities.
And interesting that NYC doesn't look at sibling priority beyond elementary school. I guess I could see the argument that by middle school the older kid, at least, could be commuting on their own/without parents needing to escort them, but it seems like a fairly reasonable thing to want even older siblings in the same school...
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Date: 2018-03-31 01:10 am (UTC)That's right about Ana's commute, though - she does nearly all her homework on the boat! She didn't want to go to school on Staten Island, so all her options started at 60m and went rapidly up from there.
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Date: 2018-03-29 10:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-03-29 11:08 pm (UTC)Yeah, well, 10 - 20% of middle schoolers in NYC are chronically absent. If the schools can't get those butts in the seats, how're they gonna force the kids/parents to fill out and turn in the application on time? The guidance counselor can remind kids, and nag them, and even bribe them - but they can't fill out the form and sign it for them.
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Date: 2018-03-29 11:14 pm (UTC)Responsibility begins at home. School is not there to teach the child to be responsible. School is to teach math, science, language arts, etc.
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Date: 2018-03-29 11:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-03-29 11:37 pm (UTC)They probably grew up in Lake Wobegon, where all the children are above average.
And what they're probably actually after aren't schools with good teachers -- they're after schools that are perceived as having an inside line with the college admissions offices.
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Date: 2018-03-30 02:06 am (UTC)And what they're probably actually after aren't schools with good teachers -- they're after schools that are perceived as having an inside line with the college admissions offices.
Let's not beat around the bush. They want schools that are mostly white and a little Asian, and not high poverty, because those are "good kids".
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Date: 2018-03-30 02:44 am (UTC)(For all that, our kids had a number of good teachers, and all four of them made it through college -- the Elder Son got into Vanderbilt with close to a full ride, even.)
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Date: 2018-03-30 12:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-03-30 12:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-03-30 01:55 am (UTC)No wonder high school kids are stressed.
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Date: 2018-03-30 02:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-03-30 04:15 am (UTC)Don't get me started on our horrendous educational system. It's horrible. It's always been horrible. And I haven't seen it change much for the better. Europe has better schools than we do.
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Date: 2018-03-30 05:27 am (UTC)That's only true on the aggregate level. Europe is a continent of many nations, the US is a nation of many states, each of which mostly funds and manages its own education system. Some European nations (such as Italy) generally fare worse than the US overall at education - and if we counted each US state separately we'd find that some states, such as Massachusetts, outperform much of Europe.
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Date: 2018-03-31 02:42 am (UTC)France has good schools for the most part, England is, well, it depends.
NY is better than Kansas, but you already knew that. Everywhere is better than Pennsylvania. Actually the best schools are in the North East Corridor due to the Ivies. The rest of the country is highly resentful of this - so, shhh...that's just between us.
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Date: 2018-03-31 03:47 am (UTC)Your map doesn't include Mississippi, I take it?
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Date: 2018-03-31 01:02 pm (UTC)Can't speak for Mississippi, haven't been there. Texas is better than I thought, lots of relatives there.
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Date: 2018-03-31 06:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-03-30 02:07 am (UTC)japan does the whole "you choose your school and take a test to get in" thing too but i don't think that's exactly a good model country to follow in terms of schooling...
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Date: 2018-03-30 02:14 am (UTC)I promise, you will hear all about the system next year when Eva does high school admissions. You will hear so much about it that you will be bored sick. When Ana did high school admissions my mother was in the middle of breast cancer, and my brain was still 90% high school admissions process, 9% breast cancer, 1% homeschooling.
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Date: 2018-03-30 11:56 am (UTC)I've completely avoided everything. No highschool admissions junk. Didn't take the SATs, went to community college instead; did that at 200% speed for one year, got my AA. No college application fees either. I got into an Icelandic uni (application = just 1 page long), later Swedish uni (no application at all), now Japanese uni (1-page application, at least on my end), and all three of those basically accept anyone who applies, too...
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Date: 2018-03-30 08:59 pm (UTC)