I was trying to figure out the likely comparitive intelligence of my two doggies

[conuly]

Obviously, individuals vary, but I was just googling up "chihuahua" and "poodle". Well, first I was looking up cognitive enrichment for dogs. Well, no, first I was looking up toys that dispense treats, and before that I was looking up how much chihuahuas and toy poodles should eat and exercise daily, but I digress.

All the resources I find on the internet seem to use a simple measurement to assess breed intelligence: How rapidly members of this breed learn new tricks, and how likely they are to do the trick when told.

Which is all well and good, but it seems to me that it's missing an important component, namely: What if your highly intelligent dog is simply not motivated to do what you want? (We see this with human testing as well, I guess.)

There has got to be a better way, but damn if I can see it.

Comments

[james]

In other words, when they devised their intelligence test, they didn't consult any owners of Huskies.

[conuly]

Or any of the other dogs that ended up on the bottom of the list : )

This sort of thing is probably why a lot of people think cats aren't that smart. No, they're plenty smart - they're smart enough that they aren't super easy to train.

[smile_n_cuddle]

ROFL

[steorra]

That seems like a very limited sense of intelligence, anyways. (And "how likely they are to do the trick when told" seems highly questionable as a test of intelligence at all.)

How about some series of tests where dogs have to solve a problem to get something they want? (Might still be hard to standardize given different dogs having different things.)

[conuly]

Much harder to standardize, and everybody wants an easy measure.

LOL. I also googled "how to tell if dog is underweight" and came across a rather helpful page explaining that even within each breed there is a lot of variation, and that breed-specific measurements are useless for mutts and mixed-breed dogs, and instead gave a visual chart, including questions like "are the ribs showing?" or "is it impossible to feel the ribs even when you try?"

First comment? "How am I supposed to be able to tell if my dog is underweight just by looking at them!?"

[gingicat]

There was a science show I saw ages back comparing the intelligence of canines and corvids. In defense of corvids, there was the teaching method that resulted in this:
https://www.cnet.com/news/watch-a-wild-crow-tackle-a-complex-eight-step-puzzle/

The crow had been taught each step separately, and was able to put the steps together later.

[conuly]

Cool :)

[rahirah]

I've seen some articles that divide dog intelligence into parts: Smarts, drive, and independent thought, basically. So you could have a breed that was very smart but unmotivated, or a breed which was dumb but persistent, and so forth. A trainer I know once mentioned that his own service dog was very easy to train, but didn't have the independent thought needed to overrule him if it was medically necessary, and hence was not an ideal service dog. (He's planning on getting another service dog and moving his current one to doing dog sports of some kind, which she's better at.)

[conuly]

(He's planning on getting another service dog and moving his current one to doing dog sports of some kind, which she's better at.)

Sounds like a good idea.

[sitonmyinterface]

Delicious motivating treats! Cheese or chicken breast maybe.

[conuly]

The dogs do like cheese, but I'm not sure cheese likes them.

[dogstar]

A lot of that stuff is coming from Stanley Coren, who wrote a book called, IIRC, "The Intelligence Of Dogs" - it's largely panned and it mostly judged intelligence based on a survey he took of obedience competitors. Wlel duh, of course obedience folks will rate trainability as intelligence! :P

Also, he's a dick who says mean things about corgis but that's unrelated :P

[conuly]

So if he largely is criticized, why is it all I'm finding on teh intarwebs? Sheesh.

[novel_machinist]

So there are pretty good dog intelligence tests, like how long it takes an animal to get out of a blanket, if the animal knows it's name, how long it takes to get them to find a high value toy or treat. Finding out what motivates a dog can be difficult, but almost always involves food and or praise. :) They make great doggie puzzles too, if your pup is being destructive because bored. You can easily make them too.

[conuly]

No destruction, but he does howl. Boy, does he howl. He's getting better, very slowly, but - boy! He doesn't like to be left alone, and he starts to panic.

[novel_machinist]

My latest rescue has severe separation anxiety and the best thing you can do is give him a high value treat or toy that he ONLY gets when you leave in my experience. Ali has a little treat puzzle that he chews on when we leave and it really cut down a lot of his fussing. Dogs always get pleasure from chewing, it relaxes them too. :)

[conuly]

This animal gives himself separation anxiety. He wanders off, then finds himself alone, and - howl!

[novel_machinist]

Awwww XD baby

[conuly]

He does it in the middle of the night. And when he's finally settled down, he crawls under my blanket, and panics when he finds there's already somebody there. I end up having to shove him out again, only for him to burrow his way in a second or third time. (Third time is usually the charm.)

He's a sweetie, and I love him to pieces, but omg.

[smile_n_cuddle]

That's really interesting. I think a lot of trainers believe you can motivate any creature with the right reinforcer. For instance, Ellie is highly motivated by treats, but Isabelle enjoys praise and snuggles.

A lot of people remove an animal's favorite food from their diet for a few days and then re-introduce it through training, thereby increasing motivation.

Ellie seems to grasp things a lot faster than Isabelle... but Isabelle holds her own, and seems less impulsive. It's interesting working with both of them :)

I have taught my parrots (and maybe dogs could learn) basic vocabulary (walk, food, water, treat, outside, inside, shower...) and then I also taught my birds yes and no - you could use shapes (star = yes, square = no). So they say "yes" or "no" to a lot of hte activities in their daily lives :)

[conuly]

Wasn't the largest vocabulary ever measured in a dog something like 200 words? The dog was so bright that if you put a pile of toys there, 9 familiar and one novel, and told him to fetch the "fidget" (or whatever) he'd pick the new toy.

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

Dogs are highly motivated by two things: attention and treats. Many dogs are more motivated by praise and petting than they are by food; others will only work when they can smell the tangible reward in your hand. Some will work for as many treats as they can get; others lose interest if they're not really hungry.

The key is to do training-sessions when the dog is hungry, and only give tiny rewards, the size of a piece of kibble or smaller, accompanied by lavish praise. You don't have to buy special treats; a dog who has not yet had any breakfast will be highly motivated to work for one kibble at a time of regular food.

Since it can be presumed that a hungry dog will do whatever it has to do to get some food, it can be presumed that two dogs of different breeds, neither of whom have had any breakfast, will be equally motivated to learn and to perform.

This could be presumed about humans too, but it's unethical to put the method into practice.