So isabeau linked to the article on lying I linked to ages ago

[conuly]

And it's such a great link I'm posting it again! (It's relevant, really.)

There's a book I've been thinking about for the nieces (because they don't have enough books - let's drop the lies and admit that all these books are really for me!), buuuuut... I'm actually paying attention to the negative reviews this time instead of loudly mocking them.

I read the book at the bookstore, and I'm on the fence. (Unlike some people, I'm not shocked at the idea that you should pre-read books before giving them to young children.)

The story is about a girl who gets into 17 different kinds of trouble because she has "an idea" each time. (Some commentors over at amazon call her a brat, I don't think that's necessarily a fair assessment, nor do I think that reading about misbehavior is tantamount to telling your children that it's okay to misbehave.) At the end, she "has an idea" to lie (and get out of trouble) so she says sorry, and now she can do that forever (she thinks).

Well. Now, of course, you can see why people get upset. Very often we *do* tell or encourage children to lie for social reasons - we tell them to say sorry when they're not, to say thank you when they're feeling anything but thankful, to say "I'm really glad you came over" when what we're really glad of is that they're leaving, and to never, ever call somebody else's beliefs in Santa or the Easter Bunny (and forget deities altogether!) stupid, silly, or wrong, even if we think they are.

But it is a bit cynical to just state outright that saying sorry when you don't actually feel sorry is lying, or that it's okay to say the opposite of what you mean just because it's socially acceptable in this context. (Even when it's true.)

So, I don't know. Maybe when Evangeline is a bit older. If it comes out in paperback - why don't picture books come out in paperback more often? I'd certainly buy a lot more if they were cheaper and took up less space!

Until then, I'll just renew the library's copy of Cowboy and Octopus - "Hey, I said something nice about you, why didn't you say something nice about me? I thought we were friends!" "We are friends. And that's why I'm telling you, that hat looks like something my horse dropped behind him. Cause that's the TRUTH."

Ana has a $45 credit on her library card. I can keep renewing books and having them overdue until the end of time, at ten cents a day, and it won't make a dent in that. I may even start taking out the fully allowed 30 books (THIRTY BOOKS!) per visit.

Comments

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

Intereting article - particularly about how teens view their fights with their parents.

But I have a problem with the idea that politeness is "lying." It's not a matter of honesty or lying, but about having regard for the other person's feelings. I need to think about that more in order to articulate the difference, but it really pisses me off when people seem to think it's okay to be rude in the name of "honesty."

I agree, though, that parents shouldn't put kids in the position of lying by saying, "Did you steal that cookie?" when you know darn well they stole it.

[conuly]

But is it possible to be polite while also being honest?

I mean, here's the thing. If I hurt your feelings saying something (hypothetically - this isn't the run into an apology here, because I don't think I did hurt your feelings, though correct me if I'm wrong), but I think it was something that was right to say - like, maybe I said "You drink too much, such wines are dangerous" and you got really defensive, I don't know - is there something I can say rather than saying sorry when I do not, in fact, feel sorry or have any regret about my actions?

Sorry tends to imply wrongdoing, after all. And on a different note, nothing irritates me more than seeing people go "Sorry, but" whatever. They're not sorry! They just think that saying sorry will make whatever they're saying sound nicer!

Or, let's talk about compliments. Is it really nice to let your friend go about wearing a hat that looks like something "my horse dropped behind him" just because saying something nice is "polite"? Surely saying the truth is kinder? "Actually, that hat isn't my style, and I think this hat would be more attractive."

And really, if you're saying something that you know is not true, what is it other than lying? Maybe the problem is in saying "lying is always bad, no matter what". If I thought I had to lie to save somebody's life, I would do that. And I wouldn't defend myself later by saying "it's not about lying or being honest, it's about saving lives" (although clearly it would be). I'd say "Yeah, I lied. And it was the right thing to do in that situation."

Similarly, in our culture, lying is accepted, approved of, and even encouraged in specific situations. I don't necessarily like this (I'm not, in fact, a good liar, and I don't like doing it anyway, social rules be damned), but I don't see the point in pretending that we *don't* live in a society where it's okay to lie in specific circumstances - including, as you say, to spare feelings.

I'm trying to find a middle ground for me, one that allows me to be polite without being dishonest. I can't say it always works, but I don't have any more complaints than I did when I tried the normal lying gig, and I seem to have less than when I just went ahead with no idea whatsoever :)

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

"Sorry" has two meanings: one is an admission of wrongdoing; another is an expression of sympathy. So it is that people say, "I'm so sorry your mother died." This doesn't mean they are apologizing for having killed her!

In your example, the correct use of "Sorry" is to say, "I'm sorry to have to say this to you, but you drink too much." For Don Imus to apologize about his racist statements, sorry is being used in two ways: "I was wrong to make such statements because they are racist," but also, "I am sorry that my words hurt people." And it is entirely possible to say the latter without saying the former.

When sorry connotes sympathy, then the issue of honesty has to do with the regard that you show for another person's feelings. Let's say my friend gifts me a gift I don't like. There are two different responses, both of which can be seen as honest. One is to tell my friend how I feel, "I don't like your gift." It's true, but it hurts that person's feelings. It shows that I care about my pleasure more than I care about their feelings. The second response is to say, "What a thoughtful gift! Thank you for thinking of me!" I'm not actually saying that I like the item in question, but I am expressing gratitude for that person's generosity. It is honest, and it also shows regard for that person's feelings. Judith Martin is always reminding her Gentle Readers that the true purpose of gift-giving is not so that Person A gets stuff they want, but so that Person B can show their regard for Person A by giving them something. What Person A thanks Person B for is not the particular item, but the fact that B cared enough about them to give them something.

With regard to the hat - you're not the one wearing it. If a person says, "Which hat do you think I should buy?" then you can say, "I think this one looks better." But if the person already bought the hat and is wearing it, then what purpose is served by you saying, "It looks like horseshit"? Such a comment will only hurt their feelings. You could just say, "You look lovely," while carefully avoiding the hat altogether.

So yes, honesty is not all it's cracked up to be. Or rather, there are different kinds of honesty and different kinds of lying. The key issue when it comes to rudeness and politeness is not whether or not it's dishonest, but whether or not you show sympathy and kindness for another person's feelings. Insincere politeness (Sorry, but...) is lying. But sincere politeness in which you put another person's feelings ahead of your own opinions -- really, what makes you think "your hat looks like shit" has anything to do with truth? That's not a fact, it's a matter of personal taste. It's not lying. It's showing regard for another person's feelings. (Saying "You drink too much" can be a matter of opinion or a matter of fact depending on the context. If opinion, it's best to keep your mouth shut. If fact, then you need to speak up.)

Which goes back to the article, and the discovery that the George Washington story is what inspired kids to be honest. Because then they understood the emotional consequences of lying. That's the real issue, and there are times when it's more important to lie - as in the extreme example where it would save someone's life.

Truth, when it comes to human beings, is very fluid, and "honesty" is a social construct. It cannot be removed from the concept of a society in which people have to learn to get along.

Whew! Okay, thanks for letting me talk all that out. :D

[conuly]

With regard to the hat - you're not the one wearing it. If a person says, "Which hat do you think I should buy?" then you can say, "I think this one looks better." But if the person already bought the hat and is wearing it, then what purpose is served by you saying, "It looks like horseshit"? Such a comment will only hurt their feelings. You could just say, "You look lovely," while carefully avoiding the hat altogether.

To be clear, in the book Cowboy originally just said, after being asked, that he didn't like the hat. He only clarified after Octopus reminded him that *he* had skirted around the issue of Cowboy's own hat by calling it "interesting".

To be honest, I'm never going to ask how something looks, or how I look, unless I want the truth. If I like it, I don't need your opinion. If I'm not sure, that's when I'm going to ask - and I'd be more upset by dishonesty than by an honest opinion, even one stated a bit harshly.

I'm aware that may just be me, which is why I try not to spontaneously comment on people's clothes unless I really think they're rocking cool, and also remind people (often) never to ask me for advice or opinions unless they actually want it!

(The character in the book is also written as being a little blunt, a little slow in social cues too. Hm. HEY! HE'S TOTALLY ON THE SPECTRUM! Seriously, though, you've got to read this book. The jokes will go over Sam's head, but you'll love it.)

Or rather, there are different kinds of honesty and different kinds of lying. The key issue when it comes to rudeness and politeness is not whether or not it's dishonest, but whether or not you show sympathy and kindness for another person's feelings.

I couldn't agree more, which is why I think, in our culture, making a big deal about "omg, making white lies is totally a bad example" is silly. They're not a bad example because they're accepted in our culture. (For that matter, it occurs to me that some of these lies may be intended to be totally transparent to most people, in which case, are they really lies? If I say something I know to be false, but I expect that you and everybody around me is going to know it's false, and I'm not trying to deceive anybody, and this is considered socially okay... is that a lie? Or is it pretend? It's not honest, at any rate, but now I have a headache! Of course, given how many times I read stories in Dear Abby and whatnot about people who followed social convention only to find they were totally misunderstood.... My grandmother, for that matter, was raised in a culture where you never say "Yes, I'd like some please." You always said "No, thank you" and waited to be asked a second time. So every time her mother went visiting, and she went too, the other women her mother was visiting would offer her a cookie, and she'd say "No, thank you" and then they'd say "I insist" and she'd say "Oh, well, yes please" and then she'd get a cookie. But one day she said "No, thank you" and the women WENT AWAY and she didn't get her cookie, and she never got her cookie, and this must have really upset her because years later she told my mother about it, and I heard about it from her.)

However, I'm not good with lies, social or otherwise. I'm trying for "honesty, but said nicely". Like I said, it doesn't always work, but I sure feel happier with it. Social lying (I will use that word, I just don't necessarily mean it to have any negative denotation) may be the norm, and accepted, and perfectly polite, but I don't see how that's the only polite way to communicate. Doesn't even work well for me, so there's that to consider.

Now I'm rambling, and you know, I only skimmed your comment? So it might not make much sense. I'll actually read your comment properly in a bit-bit and make a real response then if what I said here doesn't match up.

[conuly]

His name *is* Sam, right? You always call him Padawan, and I worry I forgot his real name! (By the way, phlegm has a random g stuck in it to make it weird.)

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

Yes, it's Sam.

[conuly]

Yeah, I think I'll leave the comment as it is. I have a feeling we agree mostly, but we can't say it like we agree...? Happy mom's day, by the way.

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean.

And thank you!

[pne.livejournal.com]

saying sorry when you don't actually feel sorry is lying

I think German solves this a bit more elegantly -- what we get children to say is, "Entschuldigung", short for "Ich bitte um Entschuldigung", which is literally, "I ask you for de-guilting/de-blaming", i.e. "please forgive me and absolve me of blame". It has nothing to do with "I'm sorry", so you can say it as a social thing without having to lie about being sorry.

I suppose an English near-equivalent is "Excuse me", but that's not used in quite the same way.

[conuly]

We could simply say "I apologise", which admits wrong-doing without having to admit to regret as well, but it sounds absurdly formal from children, and kinda weasley from adults.

[neurotica0.livejournal.com]

How did Ana get a $45 credit on her library card?

[conuly]

We didn't return books for ever and ever. Finally, I just paid for them. Then I returned them. I didn't have the receipt, so the money got credited to her card.

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

Intereting article - particularly about how teens view their fights with their parents.

But I have a problem with the idea that politeness is "lying." It's not a matter of honesty or lying, but about having regard for the other person's feelings. I need to think about that more in order to articulate the difference, but it really pisses me off when people seem to think it's okay to be rude in the name of "honesty."

I agree, though, that parents shouldn't put kids in the position of lying by saying, "Did you steal that cookie?" when you know darn well they stole it.

[conuly]

But is it possible to be polite while also being honest?

I mean, here's the thing. If I hurt your feelings saying something (hypothetically - this isn't the run into an apology here, because I don't think I did hurt your feelings, though correct me if I'm wrong), but I think it was something that was right to say - like, maybe I said "You drink too much, such wines are dangerous" and you got really defensive, I don't know - is there something I can say rather than saying sorry when I do not, in fact, feel sorry or have any regret about my actions?

Sorry tends to imply wrongdoing, after all. And on a different note, nothing irritates me more than seeing people go "Sorry, but" whatever. They're not sorry! They just think that saying sorry will make whatever they're saying sound nicer!

Or, let's talk about compliments. Is it really nice to let your friend go about wearing a hat that looks like something "my horse dropped behind him" just because saying something nice is "polite"? Surely saying the truth is kinder? "Actually, that hat isn't my style, and I think this hat would be more attractive."

And really, if you're saying something that you know is not true, what is it other than lying? Maybe the problem is in saying "lying is always bad, no matter what". If I thought I had to lie to save somebody's life, I would do that. And I wouldn't defend myself later by saying "it's not about lying or being honest, it's about saving lives" (although clearly it would be). I'd say "Yeah, I lied. And it was the right thing to do in that situation."

Similarly, in our culture, lying is accepted, approved of, and even encouraged in specific situations. I don't necessarily like this (I'm not, in fact, a good liar, and I don't like doing it anyway, social rules be damned), but I don't see the point in pretending that we *don't* live in a society where it's okay to lie in specific circumstances - including, as you say, to spare feelings.

I'm trying to find a middle ground for me, one that allows me to be polite without being dishonest. I can't say it always works, but I don't have any more complaints than I did when I tried the normal lying gig, and I seem to have less than when I just went ahead with no idea whatsoever :)

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

"Sorry" has two meanings: one is an admission of wrongdoing; another is an expression of sympathy. So it is that people say, "I'm so sorry your mother died." This doesn't mean they are apologizing for having killed her!

In your example, the correct use of "Sorry" is to say, "I'm sorry to have to say this to you, but you drink too much." For Don Imus to apologize about his racist statements, sorry is being used in two ways: "I was wrong to make such statements because they are racist," but also, "I am sorry that my words hurt people." And it is entirely possible to say the latter without saying the former.

When sorry connotes sympathy, then the issue of honesty has to do with the regard that you show for another person's feelings. Let's say my friend gifts me a gift I don't like. There are two different responses, both of which can be seen as honest. One is to tell my friend how I feel, "I don't like your gift." It's true, but it hurts that person's feelings. It shows that I care about my pleasure more than I care about their feelings. The second response is to say, "What a thoughtful gift! Thank you for thinking of me!" I'm not actually saying that I like the item in question, but I am expressing gratitude for that person's generosity. It is honest, and it also shows regard for that person's feelings. Judith Martin is always reminding her Gentle Readers that the true purpose of gift-giving is not so that Person A gets stuff they want, but so that Person B can show their regard for Person A by giving them something. What Person A thanks Person B for is not the particular item, but the fact that B cared enough about them to give them something.

With regard to the hat - you're not the one wearing it. If a person says, "Which hat do you think I should buy?" then you can say, "I think this one looks better." But if the person already bought the hat and is wearing it, then what purpose is served by you saying, "It looks like horseshit"? Such a comment will only hurt their feelings. You could just say, "You look lovely," while carefully avoiding the hat altogether.

So yes, honesty is not all it's cracked up to be. Or rather, there are different kinds of honesty and different kinds of lying. The key issue when it comes to rudeness and politeness is not whether or not it's dishonest, but whether or not you show sympathy and kindness for another person's feelings. Insincere politeness (Sorry, but...) is lying. But sincere politeness in which you put another person's feelings ahead of your own opinions -- really, what makes you think "your hat looks like shit" has anything to do with truth? That's not a fact, it's a matter of personal taste. It's not lying. It's showing regard for another person's feelings. (Saying "You drink too much" can be a matter of opinion or a matter of fact depending on the context. If opinion, it's best to keep your mouth shut. If fact, then you need to speak up.)

Which goes back to the article, and the discovery that the George Washington story is what inspired kids to be honest. Because then they understood the emotional consequences of lying. That's the real issue, and there are times when it's more important to lie - as in the extreme example where it would save someone's life.

Truth, when it comes to human beings, is very fluid, and "honesty" is a social construct. It cannot be removed from the concept of a society in which people have to learn to get along.

Whew! Okay, thanks for letting me talk all that out. :D

[conuly]

With regard to the hat - you're not the one wearing it. If a person says, "Which hat do you think I should buy?" then you can say, "I think this one looks better." But if the person already bought the hat and is wearing it, then what purpose is served by you saying, "It looks like horseshit"? Such a comment will only hurt their feelings. You could just say, "You look lovely," while carefully avoiding the hat altogether.

To be clear, in the book Cowboy originally just said, after being asked, that he didn't like the hat. He only clarified after Octopus reminded him that *he* had skirted around the issue of Cowboy's own hat by calling it "interesting".

To be honest, I'm never going to ask how something looks, or how I look, unless I want the truth. If I like it, I don't need your opinion. If I'm not sure, that's when I'm going to ask - and I'd be more upset by dishonesty than by an honest opinion, even one stated a bit harshly.

I'm aware that may just be me, which is why I try not to spontaneously comment on people's clothes unless I really think they're rocking cool, and also remind people (often) never to ask me for advice or opinions unless they actually want it!

(The character in the book is also written as being a little blunt, a little slow in social cues too. Hm. HEY! HE'S TOTALLY ON THE SPECTRUM! Seriously, though, you've got to read this book. The jokes will go over Sam's head, but you'll love it.)

Or rather, there are different kinds of honesty and different kinds of lying. The key issue when it comes to rudeness and politeness is not whether or not it's dishonest, but whether or not you show sympathy and kindness for another person's feelings.

I couldn't agree more, which is why I think, in our culture, making a big deal about "omg, making white lies is totally a bad example" is silly. They're not a bad example because they're accepted in our culture. (For that matter, it occurs to me that some of these lies may be intended to be totally transparent to most people, in which case, are they really lies? If I say something I know to be false, but I expect that you and everybody around me is going to know it's false, and I'm not trying to deceive anybody, and this is considered socially okay... is that a lie? Or is it pretend? It's not honest, at any rate, but now I have a headache! Of course, given how many times I read stories in Dear Abby and whatnot about people who followed social convention only to find they were totally misunderstood.... My grandmother, for that matter, was raised in a culture where you never say "Yes, I'd like some please." You always said "No, thank you" and waited to be asked a second time. So every time her mother went visiting, and she went too, the other women her mother was visiting would offer her a cookie, and she'd say "No, thank you" and then they'd say "I insist" and she'd say "Oh, well, yes please" and then she'd get a cookie. But one day she said "No, thank you" and the women WENT AWAY and she didn't get her cookie, and she never got her cookie, and this must have really upset her because years later she told my mother about it, and I heard about it from her.)

However, I'm not good with lies, social or otherwise. I'm trying for "honesty, but said nicely". Like I said, it doesn't always work, but I sure feel happier with it. Social lying (I will use that word, I just don't necessarily mean it to have any negative denotation) may be the norm, and accepted, and perfectly polite, but I don't see how that's the only polite way to communicate. Doesn't even work well for me, so there's that to consider.

Now I'm rambling, and you know, I only skimmed your comment? So it might not make much sense. I'll actually read your comment properly in a bit-bit and make a real response then if what I said here doesn't match up.

[conuly]

His name *is* Sam, right? You always call him Padawan, and I worry I forgot his real name! (By the way, phlegm has a random g stuck in it to make it weird.)

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

Yes, it's Sam.

[conuly]

Yeah, I think I'll leave the comment as it is. I have a feeling we agree mostly, but we can't say it like we agree...? Happy mom's day, by the way.

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean.

And thank you!

[pne.livejournal.com]

saying sorry when you don't actually feel sorry is lying

I think German solves this a bit more elegantly -- what we get children to say is, "Entschuldigung", short for "Ich bitte um Entschuldigung", which is literally, "I ask you for de-guilting/de-blaming", i.e. "please forgive me and absolve me of blame". It has nothing to do with "I'm sorry", so you can say it as a social thing without having to lie about being sorry.

I suppose an English near-equivalent is "Excuse me", but that's not used in quite the same way.

[conuly]

We could simply say "I apologise", which admits wrong-doing without having to admit to regret as well, but it sounds absurdly formal from children, and kinda weasley from adults.

[neurotica0.livejournal.com]

How did Ana get a $45 credit on her library card?

[conuly]

We didn't return books for ever and ever. Finally, I just paid for them. Then I returned them. I didn't have the receipt, so the money got credited to her card.