You know, I say "Don't talk to me about context", and that's what people try to do.

[conuly]

So let's say this again.

There is no appropriate context for saying, in front of your child, that you've thought of killing her.

This is not up for debate.

There is no appropriate context for saying, in front of your child, that you've thought of killing her.

No, not even if it was to be a murder-suicide instead of a straight murder.

There is no appropriate context for saying, in front of your child, that you've thought of killing her.

No, not even if it was "really scary" to you.

It's just wrong.

There is no context that makes this okay. And I'm not about to discuss that point as though there is such a context.

Because there isn't.

Now, you want to argue if it's ever all right to say "I'm so overwhelmed, life would be easier if..." or "Man, my kid is being such a brat, I can't take it!" - do that with each other.

But I am dead serious here. If I thought anybody I knew would ever say such disgusting things in front of their children - I would have to stop talking to them. Now. Because there is absolutely no context that makes that right.

Comments

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

You may be right but you also have no right to play parent when you are not, nor to judge people who have to deal with the hell it can be raising a 'special needs' child.

So yeah, have your little tantrum but you are REALLY judgmental about special needs parents, especially when you crow so much about how much your neices (not your daughters) can DO. You continue the stereotype that what REALLY counts is ability. You spend a lot of time judging parents. Much of your blog is about how much other parents suck. You've never been one. A full time babysitter is NOT a parent, as important as you think you are and the people around you tell you that you are.

And comparing your autism to others? As if a spectrum disorder was one size fits all, your parents were ok, so everyone else should be too. How arrogant.

I don't know WHY I read what you write, when you are such a judgmental hypocrite. I think that should stop, actually. I've done a lot of severing of obnoxious people. This isn't on the level of animal sex, of course, but of someone who tries to tear down autistic parents at every turn. They are NEVER good enough. And yet you crave that NTness in the girls so much. Look at what you do. You're part of the problem. A HUGE part of it.

I don't even think I'd let you watch my kids, you'd objectify them too much.

[dandelion.livejournal.com]

God. I've never seen someone respond with such a vitriol-filled non-sequitur to a point which ordinary people wouldn't feel was up for discussion. Think what you like about your child, but don't tell them to their face you'd rather they were dead. I don't see why that makes Connie a "judgmental hypocrite" - saying it's not alright to tell your child you'd rather they were dead is not judgmental. Do you have any idea how much what people's parents say to them affects them? Do you have any idea how incredibly hurtful it is when you know that the people who are meant to provide unconditional love to you would be happier if you didn't exist? And if the child can't understand what you say, it does not make it suddenly justifiable.

No, it can't be easy being the parent of a special needs child. That does not mean you tell your child you want them dead simply for existing the way they do. Ever.

[conuly]

Yeah, I post about what my nieces can do. You know why? Because I'm proud of them for working hard to do new things. And I'm sure you're proud when your kids work hard and figure out how to do something new - even if it's something you clearly think they ought to have done sooner. This is not because I figure I'm so important, but because they are important to me. (Anyway, what the fuck am I supposed to do, sit here and whine that Evangeline isn't a nuclear physicist yet, or that Angelique isn't running marathons? Or not mention them at all? I spend all day with them! LOL, I'm with them right now, despite my best efforts to have Jenn stay home while I stayed in bed.)

As for judgmental - yeah, maybe. I think that feeding soda to your kids at every meal and betweentimes is really a bad idea, and that letting your kids play in traffic is monumentally neglectful, and that telling people - any people, but especially your children - that you've contemplated killing them is, well, a bit mean. (I don't think you have to be a parent to come to these conclusions.) Luckily for me, judging others isn't against my moral code. I don't usually call people out for being judgmental, because I figure - hey! Everybody does it! And if I did judge others for judging, I suppose I would be a bit hypocritical. Man, do I ever hate hypocrisy.

I know a few autistic parents. Rather like them. Know a few non-autistic parents of autistic children - like 'em too. Wouldn't like them very much if they were mean to their kids, though. Weird thing - I like people to be nice to children, or at least kinda neutral.

[dv8nation.livejournal.com]

Ebert's Law applies to parenting just as much as it does to anything.

Just because I don't have kids doesn't mean that I don't know that there are some things that should NEVER be said to children. Having reproduced does not bestow superior wisdom over those of us who have yet to do so.

[thauts.livejournal.com]

YES.

I was rocking back and forth with the effort of forcing myself to be tactful with the OP of the link which started this because she's one of the people who's shown herself to be willing to actually listen, but YES.

Thank you.

[rainbow-goddess.livejournal.com]

Agreed 100 percent. I know that the things my parents said to me when I was growing up (you're so stupid; why can't you do anything right; no boy will ever look at you twice; you'll be on welfare the rest of your life; you're so stupid/ugly/clumsy/incompetent/useless/worthless that no one will ever want to hire you/marry you/be friends with you) are still with me to this day, when I'm almost 40. They have impacted my self-esteem so much that I still find myself saying or thinking those things about myself when things aren't going well. Yet they never said that they wished I were dead, even though I am autistic and also have had juvenile diabetes since I was a kid, which -- while it may not pose the same difficulties as autism -- is a very difficult thing for a parent to deal with.

I don't think conuly said that people should never say those things, or that parents never get frustrated or overwhelmed with the difficulties that come with raising a special needs child. conuly did say that parents should not say those things in front of their children. Sure, people get angry and frustrated and want to vent. Just do it away from the kids.

[conuly]

Fourth time I've seen the link in two days. I'm so far beyond tactful, it's not even funny anymore.

[conuly]

And if the child can't understand what you say, it does not make it suddenly justifiable.

I remember the scene very clearly. The kid speaks, and when she saw her mother saying this to the camera, she went up and asked if she was upset, and hugged her mother.

Even if she didn't speak, that would not necessarily mean she did not understand.

[packbat.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Even if that woman was telling the truth, the truth is not automatically given a free pass - it was wrong.

[honeybunch2.livejournal.com]

wow. I agree 101%. There is no time when that is right. Vent - when the child is not around. Yeah, it might be hard raising a special needs child - I have worked in that field for awhile (5 years) and it was stressful on a parttime basis...but child need acceptance, unconditional love...not "I wish you weren't here" or whatever.
conuly - I do not think you are judgemental. I believe you say things like they are and from experiences with you, (I still remember how we first became friends on here)I think too often as parents we need a reality check from a person outside looking in.

[conuly]

Well - fair note, I totally do judge Ms. Singer for her comment. It was inappropriate, especially in front of her child.

But really, if that makes me judgmental, I really can't complain.

[honeybunch2.livejournal.com]

if judgemental is pointing out something that is VERY wrong....then I guess lots of us are judgemental!

[leora.livejournal.com]

You probably know this, but that's emotional abuse. Your parents abused you. This is unfortunate. Abuse should not happen. Sometimes you can understand why abuse happens, but that doesn't make the abuse right.

[rainbow-goddess.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm aware of it. It's why I went to Bridges (http://www.bridgesforwomen.ca) and to counselling and all that good stuff for a few years. I really think my parents just were not cut out to be parents, and especially not cut out to be parents after 40, when most of their peers were having their first grandchildren.

I avoided contact with my parents for a few years, but now they have come to realize that I am an adult, and we get along better as adults than we ever did as parents and child. Ironically, now that my mother has Alzheimer's, she's much more pleasant to be around. She used to hate every hairstyle I ever had and everything I ever wore, but now when I see her she's always really happy and tells me how much she likes my clothes and likes my hair!

[leora.livejournal.com]

Oh good :) I just think it's important to call abuse abuse. It's so easy to justify things or think that it wasn't that bad so it was sort of okay or that it wasn't really different from non-abuse. And with emotional abuse being especially easy to do that with, I try to make that point. But you've clearly already dealt with things and such.

[rainbow-goddess.livejournal.com]

I appreciate it. A lot of people don't call it abuse; they say "well, every emo teenager cries 'abuse' when their parents won't let them stay out after curfew." Or they say things like, "Well, at least your parents didn't beat you. That's worse! You got off easy!" To be perfectly honest, when I was a kid I used to actually wish my parents would beat me, because I knew that it was wrong to do that, and I could tell a teacher or my doctor or call the Help Line for Children and report it. But I try not to get into "who had it worse" arguments. Abuse is abuse is abuse.

[conuly]

Abuse is abuse is abuse.

It's amazing that sometimes people have to point that out. And a little depressing.

*hugs*

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

You may be right but you also have no right to play parent when you are not, nor to judge people who have to deal with the hell it can be raising a 'special needs' child.

So yeah, have your little tantrum but you are REALLY judgmental about special needs parents, especially when you crow so much about how much your neices (not your daughters) can DO. You continue the stereotype that what REALLY counts is ability. You spend a lot of time judging parents. Much of your blog is about how much other parents suck. You've never been one. A full time babysitter is NOT a parent, as important as you think you are and the people around you tell you that you are.

And comparing your autism to others? As if a spectrum disorder was one size fits all, your parents were ok, so everyone else should be too. How arrogant.

I don't know WHY I read what you write, when you are such a judgmental hypocrite. I think that should stop, actually. I've done a lot of severing of obnoxious people. This isn't on the level of animal sex, of course, but of someone who tries to tear down autistic parents at every turn. They are NEVER good enough. And yet you crave that NTness in the girls so much. Look at what you do. You're part of the problem. A HUGE part of it.

I don't even think I'd let you watch my kids, you'd objectify them too much.

[dandelion.livejournal.com]

God. I've never seen someone respond with such a vitriol-filled non-sequitur to a point which ordinary people wouldn't feel was up for discussion. Think what you like about your child, but don't tell them to their face you'd rather they were dead. I don't see why that makes Connie a "judgmental hypocrite" - saying it's not alright to tell your child you'd rather they were dead is not judgmental. Do you have any idea how much what people's parents say to them affects them? Do you have any idea how incredibly hurtful it is when you know that the people who are meant to provide unconditional love to you would be happier if you didn't exist? And if the child can't understand what you say, it does not make it suddenly justifiable.

No, it can't be easy being the parent of a special needs child. That does not mean you tell your child you want them dead simply for existing the way they do. Ever.

[conuly]

Yeah, I post about what my nieces can do. You know why? Because I'm proud of them for working hard to do new things. And I'm sure you're proud when your kids work hard and figure out how to do something new - even if it's something you clearly think they ought to have done sooner. This is not because I figure I'm so important, but because they are important to me. (Anyway, what the fuck am I supposed to do, sit here and whine that Evangeline isn't a nuclear physicist yet, or that Angelique isn't running marathons? Or not mention them at all? I spend all day with them! LOL, I'm with them right now, despite my best efforts to have Jenn stay home while I stayed in bed.)

As for judgmental - yeah, maybe. I think that feeding soda to your kids at every meal and betweentimes is really a bad idea, and that letting your kids play in traffic is monumentally neglectful, and that telling people - any people, but especially your children - that you've contemplated killing them is, well, a bit mean. (I don't think you have to be a parent to come to these conclusions.) Luckily for me, judging others isn't against my moral code. I don't usually call people out for being judgmental, because I figure - hey! Everybody does it! And if I did judge others for judging, I suppose I would be a bit hypocritical. Man, do I ever hate hypocrisy.

I know a few autistic parents. Rather like them. Know a few non-autistic parents of autistic children - like 'em too. Wouldn't like them very much if they were mean to their kids, though. Weird thing - I like people to be nice to children, or at least kinda neutral.

[dv8nation.livejournal.com]

Ebert's Law applies to parenting just as much as it does to anything.

Just because I don't have kids doesn't mean that I don't know that there are some things that should NEVER be said to children. Having reproduced does not bestow superior wisdom over those of us who have yet to do so.

[thauts.livejournal.com]

YES.

I was rocking back and forth with the effort of forcing myself to be tactful with the OP of the link which started this because she's one of the people who's shown herself to be willing to actually listen, but YES.

Thank you.

[rainbow-goddess.livejournal.com]

Agreed 100 percent. I know that the things my parents said to me when I was growing up (you're so stupid; why can't you do anything right; no boy will ever look at you twice; you'll be on welfare the rest of your life; you're so stupid/ugly/clumsy/incompetent/useless/worthless that no one will ever want to hire you/marry you/be friends with you) are still with me to this day, when I'm almost 40. They have impacted my self-esteem so much that I still find myself saying or thinking those things about myself when things aren't going well. Yet they never said that they wished I were dead, even though I am autistic and also have had juvenile diabetes since I was a kid, which -- while it may not pose the same difficulties as autism -- is a very difficult thing for a parent to deal with.

I don't think conuly said that people should never say those things, or that parents never get frustrated or overwhelmed with the difficulties that come with raising a special needs child. conuly did say that parents should not say those things in front of their children. Sure, people get angry and frustrated and want to vent. Just do it away from the kids.

[conuly]

Fourth time I've seen the link in two days. I'm so far beyond tactful, it's not even funny anymore.

[conuly]

And if the child can't understand what you say, it does not make it suddenly justifiable.

I remember the scene very clearly. The kid speaks, and when she saw her mother saying this to the camera, she went up and asked if she was upset, and hugged her mother.

Even if she didn't speak, that would not necessarily mean she did not understand.

[packbat.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Even if that woman was telling the truth, the truth is not automatically given a free pass - it was wrong.

[(Anonymous)]

wow. I agree 101%. There is no time when that is right. Vent - when the child is not around. Yeah, it might be hard raising a special needs child - I have worked in that field for awhile (5 years) and it was stressful on a parttime basis...but child need acceptance, unconditional love...not "I wish you weren't here" or whatever.
conuly - I do not think you are judgemental. I believe you say things like they are and from experiences with you, (I still remember how we first became friends on here)I think too often as parents we need a reality check from a person outside looking in.

[conuly]

Well - fair note, I totally do judge Ms. Singer for her comment. It was inappropriate, especially in front of her child.

But really, if that makes me judgmental, I really can't complain.

[(Anonymous)]

if judgemental is pointing out something that is VERY wrong....then I guess lots of us are judgemental!

[leora.livejournal.com]

You probably know this, but that's emotional abuse. Your parents abused you. This is unfortunate. Abuse should not happen. Sometimes you can understand why abuse happens, but that doesn't make the abuse right.

[rainbow-goddess.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm aware of it. It's why I went to Bridges (http://www.bridgesforwomen.ca) and to counselling and all that good stuff for a few years. I really think my parents just were not cut out to be parents, and especially not cut out to be parents after 40, when most of their peers were having their first grandchildren.

I avoided contact with my parents for a few years, but now they have come to realize that I am an adult, and we get along better as adults than we ever did as parents and child. Ironically, now that my mother has Alzheimer's, she's much more pleasant to be around. She used to hate every hairstyle I ever had and everything I ever wore, but now when I see her she's always really happy and tells me how much she likes my clothes and likes my hair!

[leora.livejournal.com]

Oh good :) I just think it's important to call abuse abuse. It's so easy to justify things or think that it wasn't that bad so it was sort of okay or that it wasn't really different from non-abuse. And with emotional abuse being especially easy to do that with, I try to make that point. But you've clearly already dealt with things and such.

[rainbow-goddess.livejournal.com]

I appreciate it. A lot of people don't call it abuse; they say "well, every emo teenager cries 'abuse' when their parents won't let them stay out after curfew." Or they say things like, "Well, at least your parents didn't beat you. That's worse! You got off easy!" To be perfectly honest, when I was a kid I used to actually wish my parents would beat me, because I knew that it was wrong to do that, and I could tell a teacher or my doctor or call the Help Line for Children and report it. But I try not to get into "who had it worse" arguments. Abuse is abuse is abuse.

[conuly]

Abuse is abuse is abuse.

It's amazing that sometimes people have to point that out. And a little depressing.

*hugs*