Speaking of their language....

[conuly]

Angelique has, for a while now, been saying "yellow" as "lello". She's also been saying "oil" as "oylul", but I didn't connect the two until yesterday, when I realized that when we say "oil" it comes out "oi-yul" with a clear y in it. So... y before l makes l?

The trouble is, I don't know any more words that have a y before an l, at least not off the top of my head, so I can't test this hypothesis very well. But I think it makes sense, anyway.

What's really funny is that she didn't used to do this. She used to say them more or less correctly, and then started doing that all of a sudden. But maybe I'm wrong here, and misremembering.

Edit: Of course, there's yell. I have to try that. Maybe I'll ask her to ask her sister if she can say that... *is devious*

Edit again: Of course, I *know* that yell and yellow are very similar. I still need other words. Like yodel if the d weren't there.

Comments

[ancarett]

Yowl? That'd work! The cats around here like to yowl!

[conuly]

Oooh, good one.

[rho]

Yule, maybe? Or something like partial? Not sure how that's pronounced in your accent, but in mine I think there's a fairly clear y sound.

[conuly]

Yule, check.

Partial - not a chance, and now I really want to know how you say it that you fit a y in!

[pne.livejournal.com]

"Bile"? At least, if other diphthongs in -i also separate for you. "Boil"? "Bail"? "Sail"? "Gale"? "Pail"? "Mail"?

[conuly]

Let's see....

Boil, yes. Bail, sail, gail, pail, mail - no. Those are all one syllable. Bile - possible, but usually not. It *is* two syllables, but I go by-ul, not by-yul.

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

Soil?

Doily?

[adiva_calandia]

Huh. I had the opposite problem when I was about that age -- my l's came out as y's, resulting (infamously) in my cousin's name becoming Yuke.

Loyal?

[plaid-slytherin.livejournal.com]

Mile could work depending on your accent. (I don't say my-yul, but most people seem to.)

[kittikattie.livejournal.com]

Somewhat related, but when my neice was in the early stages of talking, she had learned most of her colors. Red was "red", Blue was "Bloo." Green was "Geen" and Yellow was... "Duck." Because, you see, ducks were yellow. It made absolute perfect sense, and she was consistant about the color being "duck." And she was...about 18 months.

[sayga.livejournal.com]

if you're just testing a hypothesis, a made-up word will do fine. you know, like the old tests, "this is a wug. these are ______." "this boy is flubbing. yesterday he ________."

[conuly]

The thing is, I don't want to ask her "Can you say ***?" if I can help it. I want to use the word in conversation and then get her to repeat it without making her think it's a test, because if I do, who the heck knows what she'll say? Which means I want to use a real word, or I'll giggle.

[caprinus.livejournal.com]

Y'all?

Mayo-lump!

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

That is normal non-fluency, which is absolutely age-appropriate. Yes, it comes and goes - a kid who formerly said "yellow" just fine starts saying "lello", or conversely, starts calling Linda "Yinda". It will go away again.

Parents or caregivers who make a big deal out of 'correcting' normal non-fluency are far more likely to create an evaluation disorder (http://www.neurosemantics.com/Stuttering/Non_Fluency.htm) (which may well be lifelong) than they are to get the kid to speak more 'correctly'.

Therefore, I say don't 'test' her, even if you suppose you're being too cagey about it for her to realize you're testing her. Don't correct her, don't make her repeat things, don't call any attention to the fact that she doesn't talk the way you want her to talk. There are some good suggestions at the bottom of this site (http://www.coloradostutteringtherapy.com/childhood/index.htm), but they all pretty-much boil down to "Adults need to chill out and not turn a normal, temporary, very minor developmental glitch into a permanent major 'complex'."

If she's still saying "lello" and "oylul" after she's 8, get her evaluated by a speech therapist. Until then, don't worry about it.

[conuly]

I'm *not* worried, though, and I *do* know it's normal - I just want to see if my idea is right (and it's not, either - she says "yell" and "yolanda" normally). I don't want her to talk the way I do yet, she is only four (and I really don't think I want her to talk the way I do anyway, I still have to tell people that I'm not from out of the country sometimes), but I like to know what exactly is going on with how she's talking, out of sheer curiosity.

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

I understand. The transformation of Y to L (or vice versa) is an error of articulation - like in tongue twisters, y'know?

Try saying "yellow leather" ten times fast. It's likely that you'll reverse the Y/L sound at least once, and that's the same thing that's happening to her: not because she's decided that Y before I equals L, but because her tongue isn't yet dextrous enough to make the switch from y-sound to l-sound so fast in a single word.

The same thing with "oylul". Say "oil" very slowly; you'll note that while it doesn't contain the actual letter Y, the letter I makes the y-sound - the tongue-position is the same - and then there's an L immediately following.

One of the reasons why non-fluency crops up at this developmental stage is that the super-language-learning 'program' that enables an infant brain to learn the basics of any language with remarkable speed is no longer the highest priority. A switch happens, where the kid moves from "learning to talk" to "learning things to talk about". Quite likely she can say "yellow" correctly when she's thinking about it, but most of the time she's not thinking about it, because talking has become automatic for her - she's thinking about what she's saying, not how she's saying it.

That's the reason it's a huge mistake for adults to focus on normal non-fluency during this phase. Sheesh, and you'd be appalled at how many do - the number of parents of preschoolers who think their kid needs OMG SPEECH THERAPY RIGHT AWAY! because they say "lellow" or "busghetti", or mix up the various consonant blends or whatever. I've sat there and listened to a mother interrupt her son every single time he spoke to correct his speech - it really illustrated for me why my classroom injunction of "Use your words" wasn't helping him: whenever he used his words at home they were wrong.

Obviously, his parents had no intention of crippling his ability to use language by making it a threatening rather than rewarding activity. That's exactly what they were doing, though. And that's what a whole lot of parents and caregivers do, though usually in a less-obvious manner, by focusing on trying to 'teach' the mechanics of language to small children.

Language acquisition is instinctive; it doesn't need to be taught. There's absolutely no point in 'drilling' kids, getting them to repeat words - if one wants to enhance their spoken-language acquisition, the way to do it is to converse with them a lot, and also let them hear plenty of adult conversation in different contexts.

[conuly]

Unfortunately, I wouldn't be appalled. I see this sort of treatment of kids all the time, and not just in regards to language. It's really annoying, too.

[ancarett]

Yowl? That'd work! The cats around here like to yowl!

[conuly]

Oooh, good one.

[rho]

Yule, maybe? Or something like partial? Not sure how that's pronounced in your accent, but in mine I think there's a fairly clear y sound.

[conuly]

Yule, check.

Partial - not a chance, and now I really want to know how you say it that you fit a y in!

[pne.livejournal.com]

"Bile"? At least, if other diphthongs in -i also separate for you. "Boil"? "Bail"? "Sail"? "Gale"? "Pail"? "Mail"?

[conuly]

Let's see....

Boil, yes. Bail, sail, gail, pail, mail - no. Those are all one syllable. Bile - possible, but usually not. It *is* two syllables, but I go by-ul, not by-yul.

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

Soil?

Doily?

[adiva_calandia]

Huh. I had the opposite problem when I was about that age -- my l's came out as y's, resulting (infamously) in my cousin's name becoming Yuke.

Loyal?

[plaid-slytherin.livejournal.com]

Mile could work depending on your accent. (I don't say my-yul, but most people seem to.)

[kittikattie.livejournal.com]

Somewhat related, but when my neice was in the early stages of talking, she had learned most of her colors. Red was "red", Blue was "Bloo." Green was "Geen" and Yellow was... "Duck." Because, you see, ducks were yellow. It made absolute perfect sense, and she was consistant about the color being "duck." And she was...about 18 months.

[sayga.livejournal.com]

if you're just testing a hypothesis, a made-up word will do fine. you know, like the old tests, "this is a wug. these are ______." "this boy is flubbing. yesterday he ________."

[conuly]

The thing is, I don't want to ask her "Can you say ***?" if I can help it. I want to use the word in conversation and then get her to repeat it without making her think it's a test, because if I do, who the heck knows what she'll say? Which means I want to use a real word, or I'll giggle.

[caprinus.livejournal.com]

Y'all?

Mayo-lump!

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

That is normal non-fluency, which is absolutely age-appropriate. Yes, it comes and goes - a kid who formerly said "yellow" just fine starts saying "lello", or conversely, starts calling Linda "Yinda". It will go away again.

Parents or caregivers who make a big deal out of 'correcting' normal non-fluency are far more likely to create an evaluation disorder (http://www.neurosemantics.com/Stuttering/Non_Fluency.htm) (which may well be lifelong) than they are to get the kid to speak more 'correctly'.

Therefore, I say don't 'test' her, even if you suppose you're being too cagey about it for her to realize you're testing her. Don't correct her, don't make her repeat things, don't call any attention to the fact that she doesn't talk the way you want her to talk. There are some good suggestions at the bottom of this site (http://www.coloradostutteringtherapy.com/childhood/index.htm), but they all pretty-much boil down to "Adults need to chill out and not turn a normal, temporary, very minor developmental glitch into a permanent major 'complex'."

If she's still saying "lello" and "oylul" after she's 8, get her evaluated by a speech therapist. Until then, don't worry about it.

[conuly]

I'm *not* worried, though, and I *do* know it's normal - I just want to see if my idea is right (and it's not, either - she says "yell" and "yolanda" normally). I don't want her to talk the way I do yet, she is only four (and I really don't think I want her to talk the way I do anyway, I still have to tell people that I'm not from out of the country sometimes), but I like to know what exactly is going on with how she's talking, out of sheer curiosity.

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

I understand. The transformation of Y to L (or vice versa) is an error of articulation - like in tongue twisters, y'know?

Try saying "yellow leather" ten times fast. It's likely that you'll reverse the Y/L sound at least once, and that's the same thing that's happening to her: not because she's decided that Y before I equals L, but because her tongue isn't yet dextrous enough to make the switch from y-sound to l-sound so fast in a single word.

The same thing with "oylul". Say "oil" very slowly; you'll note that while it doesn't contain the actual letter Y, the letter I makes the y-sound - the tongue-position is the same - and then there's an L immediately following.

One of the reasons why non-fluency crops up at this developmental stage is that the super-language-learning 'program' that enables an infant brain to learn the basics of any language with remarkable speed is no longer the highest priority. A switch happens, where the kid moves from "learning to talk" to "learning things to talk about". Quite likely she can say "yellow" correctly when she's thinking about it, but most of the time she's not thinking about it, because talking has become automatic for her - she's thinking about what she's saying, not how she's saying it.

That's the reason it's a huge mistake for adults to focus on normal non-fluency during this phase. Sheesh, and you'd be appalled at how many do - the number of parents of preschoolers who think their kid needs OMG SPEECH THERAPY RIGHT AWAY! because they say "lellow" or "busghetti", or mix up the various consonant blends or whatever. I've sat there and listened to a mother interrupt her son every single time he spoke to correct his speech - it really illustrated for me why my classroom injunction of "Use your words" wasn't helping him: whenever he used his words at home they were wrong.

Obviously, his parents had no intention of crippling his ability to use language by making it a threatening rather than rewarding activity. That's exactly what they were doing, though. And that's what a whole lot of parents and caregivers do, though usually in a less-obvious manner, by focusing on trying to 'teach' the mechanics of language to small children.

Language acquisition is instinctive; it doesn't need to be taught. There's absolutely no point in 'drilling' kids, getting them to repeat words - if one wants to enhance their spoken-language acquisition, the way to do it is to converse with them a lot, and also let them hear plenty of adult conversation in different contexts.

[conuly]

Unfortunately, I wouldn't be appalled. I see this sort of treatment of kids all the time, and not just in regards to language. It's really annoying, too.