conuly

Fucking bastards.

But then, what do we expect from an organization started by a fundamentalist Christian to indoctrinate young boys into fundamentalist Christianity? The core may be about basic values like integrity and honor, but IME the Scouts along with the rest of the fundamentalist faiths have forgotten what those things mean. And I doubt they honestly care.

Bastards. I'm glad I got out when I did, and I only wish I'd done it sooner.

From:

Ummm.. The Boy Scouts IS primarily a Judeo-Christian group. What would you expect?! That's the whole point of it.

If you don't agree with a group, or expect a group to agree with you - don't join in the first place.

From:

conuly

Except that they've insinuated themselves as a primarily "American" group.

More to the point, they've specifically stated - their rules, not mine - that a belief in *any* deity, not just the Judeo-Christian one, is enough. So, following their rules, these boys *do* agree with it.

Normally, I'd agree with you, though - I'm really posting to point out the silliness of the idea that these two, yearlong members, were suddenly accused of potentially trying to convert people. Because I've never met a Wiccan who wanted me to hear the Truth, but I get that from random Christians... often enough, anyway. And after a year, these boys were unlikely to suddenly become obsessed with converting their troop.

From:

Technically, the Wiccan belief stated in the article is for multiple gods, which it could be argued is a whole different ballgame. (One of the traditional arguments for acceptance of Judiasm, Christianity and Islam being that they all point back to the same god, with very different paths).

And it's not the Boys Scouts association that was afraid of the kids preaching - it was specific parents. And we all know how stupid parents are.

From:

Did you even read my comment? I said I know I shouldn't expect any better, but I do because it supposedly exists to promote things like freedom and instill things like integrity and compassion for your fellow humans. I fail to see how the leaders are setting a good example of these concepts. The core values the Boy Scouts claim to uphold are things I DO agree with, but that's not the point.

The Boy Scouts IS primarily a Judeo-Christian group.

The key word is "primarily". The Christian part isn't supposed to be exclusive; they claim to promote tolerance for people of all religions. Christianity is NOT supposed to be the whole point, if you accept what they say their beliefs are.

If you don't agree with a group, or expect a group to agree with you - don't join in the first place.

First off, most children don't have any idea what they agree or don't agree with except to parrot what their parents have taught them. Expecting them to make that kind of a decision is hardly realistic.

Second, when a group of people pick on someone for no better reason than their religion THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR IT. Implying it's the kids' fault for being non-Christian is blaming him for the fact that the Boy Scouts isn't living up to its own damn philosophy.

From:

Tolerance does NOT equal acceptance. I "tolerate" being around athiests - I sit beside them, I talk with them, I eat with them, I treat them like every other decent human being. That doesn't mean I accept their belief. As such, a group doesn't need to accept members that fall outside of its beliefs - but it can teach tolerance (be nice to "those other people" instead of kicking the shit out of them).

The Boys Scouts have a committee that determines whether or not a group is appropriate. Likely this matter will get bumped up to them and in a few weeks/months/years we'll get an official stance on Boy Scouts and Wiccans.

You're right, this does suck for the kids. But it's not their fault - it's their parents. THEY should have been the ones smart enough to see the problem here.

From:

You're right, tolerance does not equal acceptance, but tolerance DOES mean not purposely excluding them, especially in a group that is not expressly Judeo-Christian. As

conuly pointed out in her response to you, the Boy Scouts have been billing themselves as "American" more than Christian. Unless you know the history of the Boy Scouts chances are you wouldn't think of them as exclusively Christian because that's definitely NOT how they present themselves. If they ARE, in fact, an exclusively Christian organization, they should be up front about it and promote themselves that way. Claiming that the pre-requisite for joining is a belief in "a god" when the actual pre-requisite is "my god" is fraud by any other name. They are either misrepresenting themselves to the public or this group has broken the rules.

And I'm sorry, but it's not the parents' fault that the Boy Scouts aren't living up to their own philosophy either.

From:

Perhaps we should notice that it was the decision of a few individuals, which was overturned by those higher up. So actually the Boy Scouts IS still living up to their philosophy.

From:

Yeah, after the damage was already done. And there are plenty other ways they aren't living up to their philosophy, but they aren't directly related to the article.

From:

ICON LOVE!

From:

It's not a matter of whether the Boy Scouts have the right to be bigots, it's whether being a bigot is wrong.

And, well, it is wrong.

Likely this matter will get bumped up to them and in a few weeks/months/years we'll get an official stance on Boy Scouts and Wiccans.

That worked so well with the Boy Scouts' official position on gays.

You're right, this does suck for the kids. But it's not their fault - it's their parents. THEY should have been the ones smart enough to see the problem here.

Which parents? The bigoted parents, or the former Eagle Scout who sent his kids to scouting even though they're OMG WICCANS?

From:

Funny, the UCC is a Judeo-Christian group (http://www.ucc.org/) and doesn't proselytize much nor ban gays from full participation.

From:

maelorin

It is the Wiccan's who would be preached to. Wiccans and other pagans generally abhor proselytism.

The crucial quote of the article being:

"Boy Scouts own the program but does not control the unit," said Legare Clement, executive director of the Boy Scouts for southwestern Louisiana. "We partner with community organizations and churches as sponsors to present the program, which is actually a youth outreach for them.

Penn & Teller dealt with the Boy Scouts of America in a recent episode of Bullshit.

The BSA operates quite differently to the Scouting movement in Commonwealth countries.

From:

...because, of course, Jesus was a bigot who refused kindness, fellowship or ministry to everyone who wasn't already part of his camp! Yeah, that's in my bible, all right.

Assholes...

From:

Fucking bastards.

But then, what do we expect from an organization started by a fundamentalist Christian to indoctrinate young boys into fundamentalist Christianity? The core may be about basic values like integrity and honor, but IME the Scouts along with the rest of the fundamentalist faiths have forgotten what those things mean. And I doubt they honestly care.

Bastards. I'm glad I got out when I did, and I only wish I'd done it sooner.

From:

Ummm.. The Boy Scouts IS primarily a Judeo-Christian group. What would you expect?! That's the whole point of it.

If you don't agree with a group, or expect a group to agree with you - don't join in the first place.

From:

conuly

Except that they've insinuated themselves as a primarily "American" group.

More to the point, they've specifically stated - their rules, not mine - that a belief in *any* deity, not just the Judeo-Christian one, is enough. So, following their rules, these boys *do* agree with it.

Normally, I'd agree with you, though - I'm really posting to point out the silliness of the idea that these two, yearlong members, were suddenly accused of potentially trying to convert people. Because I've never met a Wiccan who wanted me to hear the Truth, but I get that from random Christians... often enough, anyway. And after a year, these boys were unlikely to suddenly become obsessed with converting their troop.

From:

Technically, the Wiccan belief stated in the article is for multiple gods, which it could be argued is a whole different ballgame. (One of the traditional arguments for acceptance of Judiasm, Christianity and Islam being that they all point back to the same god, with very different paths).

And it's not the Boys Scouts association that was afraid of the kids preaching - it was specific parents. And we all know how stupid parents are.

From:

Did you even read my comment? I said I know I shouldn't expect any better, but I do because it supposedly exists to promote things like freedom and instill things like integrity and compassion for your fellow humans. I fail to see how the leaders are setting a good example of these concepts. The core values the Boy Scouts claim to uphold are things I DO agree with, but that's not the point.

The Boy Scouts IS primarily a Judeo-Christian group.

The key word is "primarily". The Christian part isn't supposed to be exclusive; they claim to promote tolerance for people of all religions. Christianity is NOT supposed to be the whole point, if you accept what they say their beliefs are.

If you don't agree with a group, or expect a group to agree with you - don't join in the first place.

First off, most children don't have any idea what they agree or don't agree with except to parrot what their parents have taught them. Expecting them to make that kind of a decision is hardly realistic.

Second, when a group of people pick on someone for no better reason than their religion THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR IT. Implying it's the kids' fault for being non-Christian is blaming him for the fact that the Boy Scouts isn't living up to its own damn philosophy.

From:

Tolerance does NOT equal acceptance. I "tolerate" being around athiests - I sit beside them, I talk with them, I eat with them, I treat them like every other decent human being. That doesn't mean I accept their belief. As such, a group doesn't need to accept members that fall outside of its beliefs - but it can teach tolerance (be nice to "those other people" instead of kicking the shit out of them).

The Boys Scouts have a committee that determines whether or not a group is appropriate. Likely this matter will get bumped up to them and in a few weeks/months/years we'll get an official stance on Boy Scouts and Wiccans.

You're right, this does suck for the kids. But it's not their fault - it's their parents. THEY should have been the ones smart enough to see the problem here.

From:

You're right, tolerance does not equal acceptance, but tolerance DOES mean not purposely excluding them, especially in a group that is not expressly Judeo-Christian. As

conuly pointed out in her response to you, the Boy Scouts have been billing themselves as "American" more than Christian. Unless you know the history of the Boy Scouts chances are you wouldn't think of them as exclusively Christian because that's definitely NOT how they present themselves. If they ARE, in fact, an exclusively Christian organization, they should be up front about it and promote themselves that way. Claiming that the pre-requisite for joining is a belief in "a god" when the actual pre-requisite is "my god" is fraud by any other name. They are either misrepresenting themselves to the public or this group has broken the rules.

And I'm sorry, but it's not the parents' fault that the Boy Scouts aren't living up to their own philosophy either.

From:

Perhaps we should notice that it was the decision of a few individuals, which was overturned by those higher up. So actually the Boy Scouts IS still living up to their philosophy.

From:

Yeah, after the damage was already done. And there are plenty other ways they aren't living up to their philosophy, but they aren't directly related to the article.

From:

ICON LOVE!

From:

It's not a matter of whether the Boy Scouts have the right to be bigots, it's whether being a bigot is wrong.

And, well, it is wrong.

Likely this matter will get bumped up to them and in a few weeks/months/years we'll get an official stance on Boy Scouts and Wiccans.

That worked so well with the Boy Scouts' official position on gays.

You're right, this does suck for the kids. But it's not their fault - it's their parents. THEY should have been the ones smart enough to see the problem here.

Which parents? The bigoted parents, or the former Eagle Scout who sent his kids to scouting even though they're OMG WICCANS?

From:

Funny, the UCC is a Judeo-Christian group (http://www.ucc.org/) and doesn't proselytize much nor ban gays from full participation.

From:

maelorin

It is the Wiccan's who would be preached to. Wiccans and other pagans generally abhor proselytism.

The crucial quote of the article being:

"Boy Scouts own the program but does not control the unit," said Legare Clement, executive director of the Boy Scouts for southwestern Louisiana. "We partner with community organizations and churches as sponsors to present the program, which is actually a youth outreach for them.

Penn & Teller dealt with the Boy Scouts of America in a recent episode of Bullshit.

The BSA operates quite differently to the Scouting movement in Commonwealth countries.

From: