Aw.

[conuly]

Ana was sitting by herself for a while. I looked over... and she was practicing signing letters. "That's an O! That's I!"

Too cute.

(Which leads me to a question. As Ana clearly doesn't know, and isn't learning ASL, would it be completely wrong for me to substitute different handshapes for J and Z to avoid that whole "moving hand" thing? Because it drives... ah... her batty.)

And then later, as we read, she kept grabbing my hand, asking if I could point to various letters, and then "helping" me find the letter on the page. "Yes! That's a B! Now can you find A? Here it is!"

I love this kid. I need to be more sympathetic to her right now. She's not being bratty, she's still sick, as seen by her inability to keep awake today.

(She's being a *little* selfish in her insistence that Eva, having newly discovered the joy of toys, can't play with any ANA toys - but that's normal.)

Goals for this week: Finish top of quilt, buy border fabric, backing, and batting.
Be more patient with Ana.
Learn (or make up, because really, they're not learning any real sign language anyway) three signs a day, start using them with the baby.

Comments

[adina77.livejournal.com]

hrm, well the pinky is genually used for the J and Z. Perhaps you can have the hand still but the pinky do the Z and actually move the hand for the J.

If you need any help with ASL, Let me know :-)

[mayna.livejournal.com]

I've been attempting to teach Greg real ASL as opposed to baby signs like I did with Maylie because Maylie's picking up the signs and at her age I think it's better to learn real signs so just on the off chance we ever meet a deaf person, she could converse. Or as like a supplemental foreign language learning thing. I'm hoping to get her into the magnet school when she hits first grade that teaches Spanish as a foreign language and does "other cultures" as their thing. (the other 2 magnet schools are the arts and a math/science one). I think the foreign culture one is more with her personality than the other two. she loves learning signs.

I have noticed that ASL is harder for them to pick up than baby signs. They don't learn as many as quickly. Greg knows about 35-40 signs now at 18 mos. Maylie knew 55+ at 18 mo.

[conuly]

ASL? Or ASL signs? ASL has its own grammar - I'd suspect it's hard to teach in conjunction with English because of it. Of course, learning actual ASL yourself would make it easier... Hm.... (I periodically want to learn ASL, but... eh.)

[mayna.livejournal.com]

well at 3 yrs old she can't really learn more than individual words anyway, so I'm not worrying about grammar (I'd have to learn grammar myself too). I just get a book for kids on ASL or those Signing Time videos and see what we remember.

[conuly]

But she knows grammar already - her *own* grammar, which is mostly the one you use when speaking to her. Why wouldn't she be able to learn ASL grammar if you used it with her signing? It wouldn't be easy to explicitly teach that, but....

Ugh. I'm such an arguer. I'm sorry

[mayna.livejournal.com]

Because we're not learning to sign sentences. Just "this is how you sign" 'dog' or 'eat' or whatever. I don't know much more sign than that, I can't exactly sit here and sign along with my talking, so we might as well learn the sign together.

[conuly]

Right. So you're not teaching her ASL, and she can't converse with deaf people in ASL, though she could definitely communicate some basic ideas.

I know what you mean, but... *shrugs* I think I'll bow out of this now before I get even more obnoxious.

[mayna.livejournal.com]

Well when you take French or Spanish, they don't generally teach elementary school kids grammar. They learn category words (ie. picture of a classroom, and all the classroom items labeled in French). I think once you have a decent vocabulary of basic words you can start doing some grammar, no matter what foreign language you're learning. Even speaking pidgin language is better than none at all. You're looking at someone who took French, Spanish and German all in high school at the same time, just for fun.

In fact, that's how you learn your mother tongue. first you learn some individual words... dog, mama, dada, cat, baby, whatever. Then you put 2 words together "dada shoe!", then 3 words, "me go bye-bye", then slowly they start learning proper grammar, and at that point they have a vocab of 500+ words.

So... yes she's learning ASL. She's just not at the point where she can learn grammar yet.

[conuly]

But when they learn their individual words, they're learning them in the context of hearing their families speaking to them in full sentences which, by their nature, include grammar. They're learning grammar the whoel time!

Often, elementary school language classes are "immersion" classes - they just speak in French or Spanish, and the grammar comes naturally. This is the best way to learn.

She's just not at the point where she can learn grammar yet.

Maybe she wouldn't be using it yet, but that doesn't mean she wouldn't understand it. She's not learning ASL because she's not being taught ASL. She's being taught individual signs with no context. That's not the same thing. It's a laudable goal, it's helpful in many ways, it's not a bad thing - but it's not the same thing as teaching her ASL.

[mayna.livejournal.com]

I learned French in elementary school. It wasn't an immersion program. An immersion program would have been better, I agree. But what we did learn were individual words, and by the time high school rolled around when they did teach grammar and conjugation, it was easier because we already had a vocabulary that we could draw from.

Although I wasn't taught French grammar in elementary school, I was still learning French. You're trying to argue that I'm not teaching ASL because I'm not immersing her in the language, and that would be like arguing that learning French words isn't learning French when it is.

[conuly]

But it's not.

Most programs nowadays for elementary school students are immersion programs, because just learning vocabulary is not learning the language.

Come to think of it, the only language instruction I got in elementary school (which wasn't an immersion program either) was also more than just vocabulary - we were expected to learn grammar with it. But that's really irrelevant. Learning another language's vocabulary is nice, but it's not the same as learning the language.

[mayna.livejournal.com]

I don't know about "most"... the language magnet school here that teaches Spanish is not. (there ARE 2 immersion schools in Columbus that I know of but they are in Columbus City school district and we're in a suburban district). But I do know they are the only 2 in the greater metropolitan area. I don't know how in depth the magnet school's Spanish class is, but even if they don't teach grammar and stick with colors, alphabet, classroom items, etc, I think it is kind of silly to sit and argue that they're not teaching Spanish.

[conuly]

And I think it's just as silly to sit and argue that they are. Teaching words isn't the same as teaching a language.

But at this point I think we've rehashed each others points enough. I'm really done now - I'd feel really *really* silly to keep this up for the next week and a half, as I'm often wont to do. (And then I wonder where all my sanity went, don't I?)

[mayna.livejournal.com]

lol ok. droppin' it. le cheval est mort. ;-)

[adina77.livejournal.com]

hrm, well the pinky is genually used for the J and Z. Perhaps you can have the hand still but the pinky do the Z and actually move the hand for the J.

If you need any help with ASL, Let me know :-)

[mayna.livejournal.com]

I've been attempting to teach Greg real ASL as opposed to baby signs like I did with Maylie because Maylie's picking up the signs and at her age I think it's better to learn real signs so just on the off chance we ever meet a deaf person, she could converse. Or as like a supplemental foreign language learning thing. I'm hoping to get her into the magnet school when she hits first grade that teaches Spanish as a foreign language and does "other cultures" as their thing. (the other 2 magnet schools are the arts and a math/science one). I think the foreign culture one is more with her personality than the other two. she loves learning signs.

I have noticed that ASL is harder for them to pick up than baby signs. They don't learn as many as quickly. Greg knows about 35-40 signs now at 18 mos. Maylie knew 55+ at 18 mo.

[conuly]

ASL? Or ASL signs? ASL has its own grammar - I'd suspect it's hard to teach in conjunction with English because of it. Of course, learning actual ASL yourself would make it easier... Hm.... (I periodically want to learn ASL, but... eh.)

[mayna.livejournal.com]

well at 3 yrs old she can't really learn more than individual words anyway, so I'm not worrying about grammar (I'd have to learn grammar myself too). I just get a book for kids on ASL or those Signing Time videos and see what we remember.

[conuly]

But she knows grammar already - her *own* grammar, which is mostly the one you use when speaking to her. Why wouldn't she be able to learn ASL grammar if you used it with her signing? It wouldn't be easy to explicitly teach that, but....

Ugh. I'm such an arguer. I'm sorry

[mayna.livejournal.com]

Because we're not learning to sign sentences. Just "this is how you sign" 'dog' or 'eat' or whatever. I don't know much more sign than that, I can't exactly sit here and sign along with my talking, so we might as well learn the sign together.

[conuly]

Right. So you're not teaching her ASL, and she can't converse with deaf people in ASL, though she could definitely communicate some basic ideas.

I know what you mean, but... *shrugs* I think I'll bow out of this now before I get even more obnoxious.

[mayna.livejournal.com]

Well when you take French or Spanish, they don't generally teach elementary school kids grammar. They learn category words (ie. picture of a classroom, and all the classroom items labeled in French). I think once you have a decent vocabulary of basic words you can start doing some grammar, no matter what foreign language you're learning. Even speaking pidgin language is better than none at all. You're looking at someone who took French, Spanish and German all in high school at the same time, just for fun.

In fact, that's how you learn your mother tongue. first you learn some individual words... dog, mama, dada, cat, baby, whatever. Then you put 2 words together "dada shoe!", then 3 words, "me go bye-bye", then slowly they start learning proper grammar, and at that point they have a vocab of 500+ words.

So... yes she's learning ASL. She's just not at the point where she can learn grammar yet.

[conuly]

But when they learn their individual words, they're learning them in the context of hearing their families speaking to them in full sentences which, by their nature, include grammar. They're learning grammar the whoel time!

Often, elementary school language classes are "immersion" classes - they just speak in French or Spanish, and the grammar comes naturally. This is the best way to learn.

She's just not at the point where she can learn grammar yet.

Maybe she wouldn't be using it yet, but that doesn't mean she wouldn't understand it. She's not learning ASL because she's not being taught ASL. She's being taught individual signs with no context. That's not the same thing. It's a laudable goal, it's helpful in many ways, it's not a bad thing - but it's not the same thing as teaching her ASL.

[mayna.livejournal.com]

I learned French in elementary school. It wasn't an immersion program. An immersion program would have been better, I agree. But what we did learn were individual words, and by the time high school rolled around when they did teach grammar and conjugation, it was easier because we already had a vocabulary that we could draw from.

Although I wasn't taught French grammar in elementary school, I was still learning French. You're trying to argue that I'm not teaching ASL because I'm not immersing her in the language, and that would be like arguing that learning French words isn't learning French when it is.

[conuly]

But it's not.

Most programs nowadays for elementary school students are immersion programs, because just learning vocabulary is not learning the language.

Come to think of it, the only language instruction I got in elementary school (which wasn't an immersion program either) was also more than just vocabulary - we were expected to learn grammar with it. But that's really irrelevant. Learning another language's vocabulary is nice, but it's not the same as learning the language.

[mayna.livejournal.com]

I don't know about "most"... the language magnet school here that teaches Spanish is not. (there ARE 2 immersion schools in Columbus that I know of but they are in Columbus City school district and we're in a suburban district). But I do know they are the only 2 in the greater metropolitan area. I don't know how in depth the magnet school's Spanish class is, but even if they don't teach grammar and stick with colors, alphabet, classroom items, etc, I think it is kind of silly to sit and argue that they're not teaching Spanish.

[conuly]

And I think it's just as silly to sit and argue that they are. Teaching words isn't the same as teaching a language.

But at this point I think we've rehashed each others points enough. I'm really done now - I'd feel really *really* silly to keep this up for the next week and a half, as I'm often wont to do. (And then I wonder where all my sanity went, don't I?)

[mayna.livejournal.com]

lol ok. droppin' it. le cheval est mort. ;-)