conuly

Deniz is really cool. I think I would like spending time with her too, especially with the Chinese menu.

I don't know: it sounds almost Rousseau. Kids that age aren't mean ... It seems to me as soon as normal children develop a theory of mind and an awareness of how others feel they know what it is to be nice or mean. It is a disservice to them, their caregivers and to society in general - especially other children - to pretend otherwise. Maybe it's nearly Easter and Easter is getting to me, but I think kids were born with original sin. And every adult should be consistent and call them on whatever they do. The seed of mean is in theory of mind and in the practice of mind. I don't know how much time old Jay Jay spent with children though.

Eva is great. She seems to be doing fantastic especially with the mimicking. I hope she gets fed with solids soon. Is the mother still breastfeeding her? Or does she use a bottle?

Adelaide
knowing she has started the mother of all debates

From:

conuly

1. Jenn's still nursing ANA, no way she'd stop nursing a baby. But she takes EBM during the day, yes.

2. The longer you can delay solids, the better your kid's eventual health, generally speaking. There's a risk of allergies and such. Children can be perfectly healthy without solids up until I think nearing a year or so - indeed, their diet should be mostly breastmilk (or formula, if needed) until then.

3. Kids that age *can* be cruel - in fact, they often are - but they also seem to lack the appropriate ability to understand their actions. I don't think it's fair to blame them for things they don't necessarily understand. Yes, you should certainly not allow them to say/do mean things - but you can't just punish them, you need to explain *why* it's wrong. And, eventually, it'll stick.

That's the trouble. Children that age may understand that other people have feelings, and they may even understand that how they act affects how other people feel - but I've seen a lot of four year olds. The connection between "I act this way, they feel bad - I should stop acting that way so that others feel bad" doesn't always look like it clicks. Because they're four.

If Deniz and other four year olds I've met are at all typical (possible they're not, I don't know *that* many four and five year olds), they spend a lot of time thinking about themselves, and not so much time thinking about other people. Even if they're being mean to other people, it's all about them. (So says my amazing psychic ability, of course :P)

From:

conuly

I think I see the problem here. When I said that kids that age aren't mean, that doesn't mean they can't *act* mean - I just meant that meanness isn't a permanent character trait, and that when they're acting mean, there's generally an easy answer (mostly: they're tired, they're sick, they're hungry).

From:

I see.

Acting mean and being mean ...

The soul within us is all neutral.

But all we see of another person is their actions, and how we react/how they make us feel.

If this is intense in adulthood - and we have many years expertise and experience coping with it - then how much more difficult it must be for three year old and four year olds!

I think my compassion for younger children has gone up a thousand percent with this simple insight.

Yes, yes, yes: you do explain WHY and HOW the other person might be thinking and feeling.

When do you think meanness becomes a permanent character trait? In the pre-teen years or before?

If there are fixable reasons for meanness, then one can understand and intervene.

Adelaide

From:

conuly

When do you think meanness becomes a permanent character trait? In the pre-teen years or before?

Hell if I know. But I know that the older you get, the harder it seems to be to change how you act.

Which mayn't be a bad thing, if how you act is in a good way, y'know?

If there are fixable reasons for meanness, then one can understand and intervene.

That's why Ana's always being asked why she did something. That, and that I want her to think about her actions, and I'm guessing she isn't that great at thinking before she acts.

From:

conuly

It's hard to explain.

Gah.

It's just that some people, when they're mean, you assume something is wrong because they *never* act like that. And others, you understand that it's unintentional, that they're acting perfectly nice, but there's a misunderstanding.

And then you get teenage girls, and others of similar mentality, who think the height of entertainment is to set others up to humiliate themselves. At that point, we're talking about mean as a part of them. Moving past that might be hard.

From:

moggymania.livejournal.com

There was one in my kindergarten class that was extremely mean for the sake of being mean, not as a temporary issue. She hit, kicked, bit, punched, pinched, tripped kids, and generally was a violent little brat... She had been that way in preschool as well -- she would pick out another girl that she felt had "more" than her in some way, and torment them whenever given a chance.

I know most bullies are being bullied in the home... I even instinctively kept trying to be friendly towards her. It didn't work, so I wish I'd been the sort to hit back instead, rather than teaching her that beating up on other little kids makes them act nicely towards you.

From:

conuly

Some people, even some very young people, just can't be helped.

Honestly, though, my normal belief is that children, like cats and dogs, aren't the problem. If your dog shits on your bed, that's not the dog's fault - and if your child does the same thing, either your expectations are too high, or there's some serious issue going on that is Not The Kid's Fault.

Which doesn't make dealing with them any more pleasant, of course - it just means I get to feel bad when I label some kid in my mind as a brat.

From:

conuly

And it's possible that this five year old kid eventually grew up to be quite a nice individual. Possibly with the help of CPS and years of work from competant adults.

From:

failstoexist.livejournal.com

Thanks for the update. :) I don't really remember what my cousins were like at 6 months old, but when I go home, that's about where the youngest will be, so it's nice to be reminded.

We try to have the kids at daycare solve things themselves as well. Some of them are starting to get it, however the politeness is not there. It's "NO! Mine!" or "you can't!" with a great deal of whining thrown in, until we correct them gently to "Use a nice voice and say 'I was using that. Please give it back'." But I do like the fact that they're trying, especially when sometimes, it actually works.

Ana in particular seems to be doing very well. It's good that she's got you to take care of her and help her work on some of these things that I'm sure a lot of daycares/babysitters wouldn't find that important. I'm sure you'll do the same for her sister.

From:

conuly

It's good that she's got you to take care of her and help her work on some of these things that I'm sure a lot of daycares/babysitters wouldn't find that important.

It's because I'm lazy. Life is easier when the child with you is mannerly instead of bratty, and it's easier when they can handle small things themselves. (Though you want them to be able to come to you for help on big things, of course.)

From:

I don't know what Ana's attention span is, but Maylie (who is 39 mos) loves Candy Land and Memory. She'll play Candy Land over and over until YOU get tired of it. And we got these work books from the grocery store that she is enthralled with. They're called like Preschool Basics and there's a few others for ages 3-5. It's easy to see with that what concepts she knows and what she doesn't. With those I've noticed that Maylie hates to color (she'll draw horizontal lines in a rectangle but won't want to color it in, or will do a little scribble and say she's done), she doesn't understand rhyming words, patterns, or mazes. (she's starting to grasp the concept of the latter 2 with the practice from the workbook) But all the numbers, letters, counting, shapes, categorizing... she loves that stuff and wants to sit there and do these workbooks for ages.

And with the traffic light, Bill taught her that red means stop, green means go, and yellow means slow down. So now when we're driving, she points out the light and says "You need to stop, the light is red!!" Backseat drivers... ;-)

From:

conuly

"Stop dogs, stop! The light is red now! Go, dogs, go, the light is GREEN now!"

I want to get Ana a decent Memory set for her birth... oh dear. Wait. Time to make the obligatory birthday post.

From:

Just an FYI, the Pooh memory game sucks. The original is a lot better. But with Candyland, the Dora one is awesome for the kid who loves Dora.

From:

conuly

I intend to shell out a little bit more money for wooden memory cards. As for Candyland, I'd get the original - Ana doesn't watch much TV (Jenn's house doesn't have reception at the moment, so Ana only gets 22 minutes as I do her hair in the morning, off a DVD), and anyway, I've got personal feelings about branded clothing and toys for children. It seems tacky.

Mind, if I got some of that for free, like, from somebody else, I'd be thrilled - but I wouldn't spend money for it.

From:

I think that she gets to "be" Dora makes it more interesting for her. For a kid who watches Dora maybe... once a week IF THAT, she really loves Dora.
Our kids are REALLY good at ruining things and losing pieces so I don't like spending lots of money on things. As it is, we have to keep the games up high so Maylie doesn't get them down herself, and then her brother would spread the cards all over the house. He will ruin pretty much anything in reach.

From:

conuly

Which sounds wrong. It juust... does. Maybe because I see it with very young children, and I end up wondering why people want to start brand recognition with their six month olds.

From:

Seth has the Dora version. He likes it better than the generic boy/girl game. And since he knows how to both count and recognize colors, its a great game. He's got his letters down too, so do you know any games good about that? He can point out and recognize letters, but does *not* know the Annoning As Hell ABC Song. (And I am quite fine with this!).

From:

We haven't really played any letter-recognition games. But if we're reading a book, or there's a sign, or something I'll say "what letter is that?" Well, past tense, she knows all her letters. What we've been doing is a lot of "what letter does $word start with?" She is really good at letter sounds now... I started that game in the car in Nov (we have a 30 min commute). So now we are working on putting words together. We'll get out paper and she'll say what she wants me to draw, and we'll write the word first (I'll guide her hand, I've seen her write letters before but for some reason is unable to or doesn't want to do it herself these days), and I'll help her sound the word out so we know what letters to write, and then I'll draw the picture underneath.

It's not so much playing games, but being exposed to it and wanting to learn it I guess.

From:

That could work. Especially because we stay home mostly. The "what letter does this word start with" thing. To start word building. Yay. Thank you! :-D

From:

Well Maylie already knew her alphabet. So we'd go "what letter does Maylie start with? MMMMMMMMaylie?" and she figured those out pretty quickly, but if she didn't know it I'd answer and say "M! MMMMMMMMaylie starts with MMMMMMM!!!" So she got the obvious ones pretty quickly like D, M, T, P... and slowly with exposure to the not so obvious ones (like G, the vowels, or C/K) she knows most of the alphabet and is pretty good with it. She even remembers which words start with C and which with K.

It's something to do in the car, Maylie loves being quizzed on things and so likes the question/answer things. Sometimes she'll ask me "what letter does $word start with?" and I'll answer (but I have learned not to say the wrong answer to see if she catches it because then she'll think it's funny to give wrong answers.)

Now that she's good at the sounds the letters make at the beginning, adding more letters isn't too hard for her.

From:

Thats awesome.

From:

leora.livejournal.com

People used to say that I was good with children. I now recognize the key points that made this true:

a) I had energy. If you have energy, it is easy to do fun things with kids. Nowadays, I could not go hunting dandelions and yellow things with a child, because I don't have the energy for it.

b) I had patience

c) I was interested in and cared about the kids

That basically is it. But tired adults simply cannot compete with energetic teens and twenty-somethings in good health.

From:

gingembre.livejournal.com

That basically is it. But tired adults simply cannot compete with energetic teens and twenty-somethings in good health.

LOL. So true, so true, so TRUE!!! On the plus side, as they get older very often they then are interested in more "quiet-time" things as well - crafts, storytime, card games, etc. :-)

From:

Deniz is really cool. I think I would like spending time with her too, especially with the Chinese menu.

I don't know: it sounds almost Rousseau. Kids that age aren't mean ... It seems to me as soon as normal children develop a theory of mind and an awareness of how others feel they know what it is to be nice or mean. It is a disservice to them, their caregivers and to society in general - especially other children - to pretend otherwise. Maybe it's nearly Easter and Easter is getting to me, but I think kids were born with original sin. And every adult should be consistent and call them on whatever they do. The seed of mean is in theory of mind and in the practice of mind. I don't know how much time old Jay Jay spent with children though.

Eva is great. She seems to be doing fantastic especially with the mimicking. I hope she gets fed with solids soon. Is the mother still breastfeeding her? Or does she use a bottle?

Adelaide
knowing she has started the mother of all debates

From:

conuly

1. Jenn's still nursing ANA, no way she'd stop nursing a baby. But she takes EBM during the day, yes.

2. The longer you can delay solids, the better your kid's eventual health, generally speaking. There's a risk of allergies and such. Children can be perfectly healthy without solids up until I think nearing a year or so - indeed, their diet should be mostly breastmilk (or formula, if needed) until then.

3. Kids that age *can* be cruel - in fact, they often are - but they also seem to lack the appropriate ability to understand their actions. I don't think it's fair to blame them for things they don't necessarily understand. Yes, you should certainly not allow them to say/do mean things - but you can't just punish them, you need to explain *why* it's wrong. And, eventually, it'll stick.

That's the trouble. Children that age may understand that other people have feelings, and they may even understand that how they act affects how other people feel - but I've seen a lot of four year olds. The connection between "I act this way, they feel bad - I should stop acting that way so that others feel bad" doesn't always look like it clicks. Because they're four.

If Deniz and other four year olds I've met are at all typical (possible they're not, I don't know *that* many four and five year olds), they spend a lot of time thinking about themselves, and not so much time thinking about other people. Even if they're being mean to other people, it's all about them. (So says my amazing psychic ability, of course :P)

From:

conuly

I think I see the problem here. When I said that kids that age aren't mean, that doesn't mean they can't *act* mean - I just meant that meanness isn't a permanent character trait, and that when they're acting mean, there's generally an easy answer (mostly: they're tired, they're sick, they're hungry).

From:

I see.

Acting mean and being mean ...

The soul within us is all neutral.

But all we see of another person is their actions, and how we react/how they make us feel.

If this is intense in adulthood - and we have many years expertise and experience coping with it - then how much more difficult it must be for three year old and four year olds!

I think my compassion for younger children has gone up a thousand percent with this simple insight.

Yes, yes, yes: you do explain WHY and HOW the other person might be thinking and feeling.

When do you think meanness becomes a permanent character trait? In the pre-teen years or before?

If there are fixable reasons for meanness, then one can understand and intervene.

Adelaide

From:

conuly

When do you think meanness becomes a permanent character trait? In the pre-teen years or before?

Hell if I know. But I know that the older you get, the harder it seems to be to change how you act.

Which mayn't be a bad thing, if how you act is in a good way, y'know?

If there are fixable reasons for meanness, then one can understand and intervene.

That's why Ana's always being asked why she did something. That, and that I want her to think about her actions, and I'm guessing she isn't that great at thinking before she acts.

From:

conuly

It's hard to explain.

Gah.

It's just that some people, when they're mean, you assume something is wrong because they *never* act like that. And others, you understand that it's unintentional, that they're acting perfectly nice, but there's a misunderstanding.

And then you get teenage girls, and others of similar mentality, who think the height of entertainment is to set others up to humiliate themselves. At that point, we're talking about mean as a part of them. Moving past that might be hard.

From:

moggymania.livejournal.com

There was one in my kindergarten class that was extremely mean for the sake of being mean, not as a temporary issue. She hit, kicked, bit, punched, pinched, tripped kids, and generally was a violent little brat... She had been that way in preschool as well -- she would pick out another girl that she felt had "more" than her in some way, and torment them whenever given a chance.

I know most bullies are being bullied in the home... I even instinctively kept trying to be friendly towards her. It didn't work, so I wish I'd been the sort to hit back instead, rather than teaching her that beating up on other little kids makes them act nicely towards you.

From:

conuly

Some people, even some very young people, just can't be helped.

Honestly, though, my normal belief is that children, like cats and dogs, aren't the problem. If your dog shits on your bed, that's not the dog's fault - and if your child does the same thing, either your expectations are too high, or there's some serious issue going on that is Not The Kid's Fault.

Which doesn't make dealing with them any more pleasant, of course - it just means I get to feel bad when I label some kid in my mind as a brat.

From:

conuly

And it's possible that this five year old kid eventually grew up to be quite a nice individual. Possibly with the help of CPS and years of work from competant adults.

From:

failstoexist.livejournal.com

Thanks for the update. :) I don't really remember what my cousins were like at 6 months old, but when I go home, that's about where the youngest will be, so it's nice to be reminded.

We try to have the kids at daycare solve things themselves as well. Some of them are starting to get it, however the politeness is not there. It's "NO! Mine!" or "you can't!" with a great deal of whining thrown in, until we correct them gently to "Use a nice voice and say 'I was using that. Please give it back'." But I do like the fact that they're trying, especially when sometimes, it actually works.

Ana in particular seems to be doing very well. It's good that she's got you to take care of her and help her work on some of these things that I'm sure a lot of daycares/babysitters wouldn't find that important. I'm sure you'll do the same for her sister.

From:

conuly

It's good that she's got you to take care of her and help her work on some of these things that I'm sure a lot of daycares/babysitters wouldn't find that important.

It's because I'm lazy. Life is easier when the child with you is mannerly instead of bratty, and it's easier when they can handle small things themselves. (Though you want them to be able to come to you for help on big things, of course.)

From:

I don't know what Ana's attention span is, but Maylie (who is 39 mos) loves Candy Land and Memory. She'll play Candy Land over and over until YOU get tired of it. And we got these work books from the grocery store that she is enthralled with. They're called like Preschool Basics and there's a few others for ages 3-5. It's easy to see with that what concepts she knows and what she doesn't. With those I've noticed that Maylie hates to color (she'll draw horizontal lines in a rectangle but won't want to color it in, or will do a little scribble and say she's done), she doesn't understand rhyming words, patterns, or mazes. (she's starting to grasp the concept of the latter 2 with the practice from the workbook) But all the numbers, letters, counting, shapes, categorizing... she loves that stuff and wants to sit there and do these workbooks for ages.

And with the traffic light, Bill taught her that red means stop, green means go, and yellow means slow down. So now when we're driving, she points out the light and says "You need to stop, the light is red!!" Backseat drivers... ;-)

From:

conuly

"Stop dogs, stop! The light is red now! Go, dogs, go, the light is GREEN now!"

I want to get Ana a decent Memory set for her birth... oh dear. Wait. Time to make the obligatory birthday post.

From:

Just an FYI, the Pooh memory game sucks. The original is a lot better. But with Candyland, the Dora one is awesome for the kid who loves Dora.

From:

conuly

I intend to shell out a little bit more money for wooden memory cards. As for Candyland, I'd get the original - Ana doesn't watch much TV (Jenn's house doesn't have reception at the moment, so Ana only gets 22 minutes as I do her hair in the morning, off a DVD), and anyway, I've got personal feelings about branded clothing and toys for children. It seems tacky.

Mind, if I got some of that for free, like, from somebody else, I'd be thrilled - but I wouldn't spend money for it.

From:

I think that she gets to "be" Dora makes it more interesting for her. For a kid who watches Dora maybe... once a week IF THAT, she really loves Dora.
Our kids are REALLY good at ruining things and losing pieces so I don't like spending lots of money on things. As it is, we have to keep the games up high so Maylie doesn't get them down herself, and then her brother would spread the cards all over the house. He will ruin pretty much anything in reach.

From:

conuly

Which sounds wrong. It juust... does. Maybe because I see it with very young children, and I end up wondering why people want to start brand recognition with their six month olds.

From:

Seth has the Dora version. He likes it better than the generic boy/girl game. And since he knows how to both count and recognize colors, its a great game. He's got his letters down too, so do you know any games good about that? He can point out and recognize letters, but does *not* know the Annoning As Hell ABC Song. (And I am quite fine with this!).

From:

We haven't really played any letter-recognition games. But if we're reading a book, or there's a sign, or something I'll say "what letter is that?" Well, past tense, she knows all her letters. What we've been doing is a lot of "what letter does $word start with?" She is really good at letter sounds now... I started that game in the car in Nov (we have a 30 min commute). So now we are working on putting words together. We'll get out paper and she'll say what she wants me to draw, and we'll write the word first (I'll guide her hand, I've seen her write letters before but for some reason is unable to or doesn't want to do it herself these days), and I'll help her sound the word out so we know what letters to write, and then I'll draw the picture underneath.

It's not so much playing games, but being exposed to it and wanting to learn it I guess.

From:

That could work. Especially because we stay home mostly. The "what letter does this word start with" thing. To start word building. Yay. Thank you! :-D

From:

Well Maylie already knew her alphabet. So we'd go "what letter does Maylie start with? MMMMMMMMaylie?" and she figured those out pretty quickly, but if she didn't know it I'd answer and say "M! MMMMMMMMaylie starts with MMMMMMM!!!" So she got the obvious ones pretty quickly like D, M, T, P... and slowly with exposure to the not so obvious ones (like G, the vowels, or C/K) she knows most of the alphabet and is pretty good with it. She even remembers which words start with C and which with K.

It's something to do in the car, Maylie loves being quizzed on things and so likes the question/answer things. Sometimes she'll ask me "what letter does $word start with?" and I'll answer (but I have learned not to say the wrong answer to see if she catches it because then she'll think it's funny to give wrong answers.)

Now that she's good at the sounds the letters make at the beginning, adding more letters isn't too hard for her.

From: