What do you do...

[conuly]

When you want to tell somebody they've been mildly offensive without offending them? Because this person didn't mean to offend, and you like them, and anyway it's not your cause to champion... but they've been offensive and you want to tell them. People shouldn't be saying things that are accidentally offensive.

And what if it's not offensive to the people whom it refers to? What if I've got the wrong end of the stick here? (Pretty sure I don't, but I've been a bit quick to irritate lately, if you haven't noticed....)

Hm.

I think I'll start by asking: would you mind if I told you you'd said something offensive?

If the person in question replies "no", I can go on to asking advice from people who know more about the specific subject at hand.

(And yes I know this is maddeningly vague. It's supposed to be. I don't want the person in question guessing, unlike most of the times when people say "IF YOU DO SUCH AND FUCH I WON'T BE YOUR FRIEND!" and everyone thinks it's them *but* the person it really is. I don't know how to do that without 1. making a special filter to exclude this person or 2. being maddeningly vague. Suggestions on this would also be appreciated. Odds are it's not you, anyway, because it's only one person out of my huge friends list. And... it's nobody I know in person, so those of you can breathe easily.)

And please comment if you have an opinion on being corrected for offensiveness. This'd be really helpful to me. For seriously offensive things, I don't care what you think (and may even recruit others to help drive the point home), for minor things.... I don't want to drag up the energy for an argument every time somebody says something off.

And please recall that I'm not upset, just... The post/comment in question (that's an or so you don't think it's one or the other) illustrates some serious misconceptions... I hate it when people are wrong.

Comments

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

I'd rather know if I've offended someone. If my behaviour, or the things I've said are a problem, I can't very well change it if no-one tells me. I'd rather feel a bit upset for a few minutes than make someone else feel upset for heaven only knows how long.

Personally. XD;

[fjorab-teke.livejournal.com]

I don't mind being told I've said something offensive and why, as long as it's not flamey and "feeds" the fire, so to speak. That always stands with me. And if I was wrong, I'll apologize. If I was taken by mistake (like something directed at another person or group and someone I actually like or respect thinks it's intended for them), I'll try to clarify. And sometimes my lack of social tact just overtakes my brain. :-p

Of course, most of my rants lately have been from stress and from things people have said/done about/to me recently.

Perhaps my "warlike" feelings toward my sister will subside again once the whole moving is over and I don't have to see her that often (she and I both have projects going on, and she's in the middle of both :-p).

[leora.livejournal.com]

I prefer to be told, although I sometimes get defensive, depending on how I am told. What I like most is to be told that I have offended, along with a clear statement of why it was found offensive. Then if there is a misunderstanding or differing assumptions, those can be discussed, and it's not someone saying you suck and are wrong and evil, but someone holding a different opinion or with a different perspective, and that's okay. Discussion is good, and it leads to better understanding. Also, I know that in real life I often say things in ways that don't get across what I really meant. I seem to do better online, but I'm sure it varies. So, I like a chance to reword it, so I can say - oh yes, I said that badly, that really isn't at all what I meant to say.

So, basically, calmly and with information tends to work best, and then I like to know.

[movealongx.livejournal.com]

I don't mind being told I'm being offensive usually. It really depends on the way it's presented though. And the same goes for if I'm wrong about something.

If someone approaches me and says "Hey - I overheard that you said 2+2=5.. I just wanted to say that it's really 4, not 5." and is nice about it. Then it's more easy to digest. But if someone says "Hey you idiot! 2+2 isn't 5! It's 4 dummy!" Then I'd automatically go on the defensive and retaliate.

Although now - I'm afraid that I've done something unintentionally to offend you (or someone in general) and now I'm paranoid. lol.

I'd rather be told

[duponthumanite.livejournal.com]

because 9 times out of 10 I don't see it.

However, four years ago in July I was told "Do you realise that many of your posts are insensitive" after I had made a comment about the founder of the site being dead, and also about northern/southern Italy. But it was more a pattern the person had noticed, and she herself was trying to work on compassion and empathy.

Yes. I'd still rather be told. Depends on their motivations. If they're as straightforward as you, I can take it. But if it involves emotional games, I cannot and will not take it.

Adelaide

[lordalfredhenry.livejournal.com]

I don't mind.

[rho]

I'd generally rather be told, provided that the person telling me makes it clear that they know I was acting out of ignorance rather than malice.

[malantha.livejournal.com]

I don't mind it. I like to be corrected, provided it's in an informative way rather than an accusing or inflammatory way.

[katschakai.livejournal.com]

I would want to be told if I say something offensiv, especially if it seems like I'm not offensive on purpose. If I'm offensiv, but don't know it myself, I will most probably make an arse of myself in the same way again, and that is something I want to avoid.

[rpeate.livejournal.com]

I err on the side of saying what I think. My wife has to reign me in sometimes. If it's me, go ahead, I can take it. I think that communicating fosters friendship, and that silence fosters parting ways. If it's not me, all the better, but my advice still applies.

[brownkitty.livejournal.com]

Even if I get mad, I would still want to know. If it turns out that I'm only offending one person, I'd still want to know so I could adjust what I said around that particular person.

If it's me, I'm not going to promise not to get mad. But a good bit of that would probably be mad at myself (assuming it's not something that I couldn't have known).

If I'm goin to offend someone, I want it to be intentional (only partly joking).

[arikatt.livejournal.com]

Straightforward and blunt. If you put it right in front of someone's nose they usually don't have time to be offended.

[stagemanager.livejournal.com]

I prefer being told, because I try so very hard to never offend anyone that if I havem it's quite unintentional. But that's just me.

[mizemm.livejournal.com]

I agree with everything spacemuffin said. I feel a lot more upset if I find out a long time after the offensive incident happened, than if I'm told immediately. If I find out later (or if I'm never told, but sense that something's wrong), I feel a lot worse than if I was able to make changes early.

[sayga.livejournal.com]

i rarely mind being corrected or told i'm being offensive. and the times where i AM upset by it, if i take a longer look, i usually find i'm upset because what the other person said is particularly true. unless the person is just being mean or nitpicky, i don't mind.

[conuly]

Well... that's good to know. Because... um... yeah.

I'll get back to you in a bit, why don't I?

Well, I'll say it here. But this is the unedited, unhelped version of my comment, which mayn't be as good as it should be.

I was reading your comment here. I've been doing a lot of reading on disability related issues lately. I read a lot, y'know? And I've been reading stuff by quads as well.

You start off saying that that poor girl will never even remember being able to move around. This is good, empathetic thought - you can't imagine that, you assume it'd be horrible, you feel really bad for her, right? But it sounds a lot like "that girl won't be happy". I know that's reading a lot into the comment, but it does seem like this sort of thing is often paired with the thought that life without *whatever ability* isn't as good or worthwhile as life with whatever ability - in this case, the ability to move.

Life in a wheelchair, sure, I don't imagine it to be the best thing in the world. But as I've been made aware many times already (and I'm new to all this), many of the problems come from inaccessible buildings and mindsets - not from the actual disability. And one of those mindsets is that you're a "poor girl" who is to be pitied or felt sorry for for not being able to move. This is something it's hard to move out of, really.

Then you go on to "and her brain will be completely functional, which somehow makes it worse to me. maybe i feel like someone with limited mental capacity wouldn't notice the difference as much." which is what actually upset me. It sounds again like saying that life being unable to move below the neck would be an unbearable hell to people who can notice it. Which I don't think you meant, not in those words - but I wonder if maybe the idea is still there under the words? This is important not because it strikes me as an offensive statement to people who are paralysed and happy with their lives, but also because this is the sort of reasoning people use to get away, literally get away with murdering their children. Not to say you're a murderer - I'm really going on a tangent here - but it's true. Disabled children (and adults) get killed every year by people who should be *protecting them*, and the killer gets a slap on the wrist, if that, because, after all, it was a "mercy".

Most people who, in adulthood become paralysed, don't, I'm told, feel like killing themselves over it - not after it's sunk in, anyway. That implies to me that the life can't be so bad it'd be worth not being able to understand the situation in order to endure it. And most of them don't, as near as I can tell, spend their whole lives going "Gee, I wish I could walk. Gee, I wish I could walk. I wanna walk." You can't live your life that way, can you?

And then you ended with "still, maybe there's hope for her. a lot of people eventually regain some control of their limbs."

This again makes me think that maybe you think that normal movement is part of what makes life living. Yes, being unparalysed is a good thing. Yes, most quads, I'm told, regain some degree of motion. But you can live a perfectly good life in a wheelchair. Maybe there's hope for her because she'll be the first openly disabled president of this country. Maybe there's hope for her because she'll become a bestselling author. Maybe there's hope that she'll be a gifted quadriplegic athlete. Maybe she'll be a famous activist and help improve conditions here. Who knows? Maybe recovering isn't everything, and she'll be happy.

Of course, this *isn't* a subject I'm well-versed in. I've just... read a lot of thoughts on the subject.

[conuly]

That comment isn't as good as it should be. It's not as clear as I'd like, and it comes across terser than I'd like. I could ask for help from people who know more about the subject than I do, but I know from experience that every time I do that, even though I say "Play Nice", there's always *somebody* who shows up and isn't. The things I feel strongly about tend to be things that other people feel strongly about, and feeling strongly about things means people are more vehemant than is effective. I do that too.

So if you want more opinions on the subject, I can do that, and if you don't, I won't.

[sayga.livejournal.com]

as far as it would be horrible... i mean it would be terribly frustrating for a CHILD who can't understand WHY they can't move. an adult can understand rationally, but a child... well, I guess they would never know the difference, so maybe it WOULDN'T be that frustrating. but. well, i just think it would be so hard for a baby, and the parents of a baby.

i knew a guy with CP who could barely even speak understandably but he didn't let it affect him negatively. it didn't stop me from wishing that he may know the ease of speech and movement i take for granted. yet, he may not have even wished the same for himself.

and it's not just the "i can't walk" thing. it's the fact that it was from the neck down. i don't know much about disabilities like that, but i just feel like being unable to move from the neck down would be WAY worse than just having no mobility in your legs. i guess i feel like i would be unable to have any level of independence if i required assistence to even eat, or move my wheelchair 3 feet. but, like i said, i don't KNOW how someone with a disability like that would actually feel. i've never met, much less talked, to someone with that "problem."

well, thanks for telling me it was ME that bugged you. but i really HATE those passive agressive posts, you know? you might as well just come out and snark it. in the future, i'd be fine with it. i like you. i value what you have to say. i would read it with an open mind.

[conuly]

but i really HATE those passive agressive posts, you know?

That's why I worked hard not to say who or what it was. I hate it when people do that. I just didn't want to go off and say "Well..." until I knew for sure it'd be well received, because my thoughts on the subject aren't as clear now as I'd like them to be. It's bad enough telling people you're upset with something they said when you can do it clearly and reasonably coherantly.

I know I dragged it all out too long, too, but at the time it made sense. I'll chalk it up to a complete lack of sense at the time, and work harder not to do that in the future.

i guess i feel like i would be unable to have any level of independence if i required assistence to even eat, or move my wheelchair 3 feet.

Well... many of my friends require considerable assistance with this sort of thing. Some of them have commented about how requiring assitance isn't a bad thing, and about how nobody is as independant as they think. If I could find the link now.... *sighs* I'll have to dredge it up later. It's 1am here. I'll soon be putting my foot in my mouth even more than I'm usually wont to do.

[wakasplat.livejournal.com]

One aspect you didn't cover (and I hope this is nice enough) is that it's actually usually easier for young children to adjust to becoming disabled than adults. Adults already have all kinds of ideas in their heads about what it means to be disabled, children don't have as many. (Although if their parents make the wrong kind of big deal out of it, it can be a problem.) Generally if you have people who were disabled from birth or early childhood, and people who have the same disability from adulthood, the ones who got that way younger are happier about it and may even consider it a part of them that they can't imagine not having.

[lizziey.livejournal.com]

I know I am uber-late here, and its settled, blah blah, but you put "SUCH AND FUCH".

Heh.

[conuly]

My dad used to say that.

[lizziey.livejournal.com]

Ah, ok. :) Well, remember, I never met the guy, though i do wish i had. :-\

[conuly]

You know Mommy keeps swearing that you two *must* have known each other *somehow* :)

[lizziey.livejournal.com]

Lol. I'm pretty sure I'd remember meeting santa claus. :~p Well, a real one anyway, *giggle*