*stretches*

[conuly]

A few randomly related thoughts about this...

First, I'm thinking of the other day. I was on the crowded bus (the one before that hadn't come, or something), and a guy with a cane (it's at the boat, the bus isn't moving yet) makes his way through to the back. Now, at this point I'm not sure what happened. Either nobody offered him a seat in the "YOU MUST GIVE THIS SEAT...." seats at the front (which is wrong, because there's no reason a guy with a cane should have to walk all the way to the back of the bus, that's why those seats are labeled), or he wanted to sit with his friends/family, who were at the back. I didn't know then, and I don't know now.

Anyway, he gets to his friends, and since they have the last seats, he goes "One of you has to get up", which could be rude, but because they're all friends, it's not, and they're laughing, and he sits down. Great, problem solved.

Except that they're sitting in the wheelchair seat. And yes, a guy in a wheelchair has to get on. Now, when the bus driver says this, the people sitting *opposite* the Group with the Guy with the Cane get up, clearly making room for that group to sit down. I see this. Everybody else on the back of the bus sees this. Guy with the Cane doesn't see this, and starts pestering the bus driver to tell the people in the front to let him sit down because "I had three heart attacks".

This is a perfectly good and valid point, and normally I'd say he's completely right. Except that there was a seat for him, and two seats for his friends, right here in the back! Less walking! But he was so busy trying to get the bus driver to help him out that he didn't even see the good intentions of the people who were now edging themselves forward to let him by.

He did eventually notice those seats and sit down, but the whole thing stuck in my mind.

That's just a story. I also have a point about the comments in the link.

A number of people are saying that the pregnant woman didn't deserve the seat because "it's not a disability" and it's not a disability because "that's a choice". (Let's ignore the woman's blatant and uncalled-for rudeness for the purposes of this conversation, okay?)

Disability is defined as not being a choice? Hah. Let's just look it up, shall we? A disability is any physical and/or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more of the major life activities (caring for one’s self, walking, seeing, hearing, and the like)

I've never been pregnant. I never *want* to be pregnant. Babies are parasites? Damn straight. And you're not the only one to think so. You're not even especially witty to say that. Your own *body* thinks that the baby is a parasite.

However, I think I can safely say, even without ever having had the experience, that by the time you're ready to pop, your pregnancy is "substantially limiting one or more of the major life activities". The phrase major life activities means functions such as caring for one's self, performing manual tasks, walking, seeing, hearing, speaking, breathing, learning, and working. Walking? If you can't even reliably *stand* on a *bus* (and I recognize that not all pregnant people go through this), I'd say you've lost a major life activity right there. Notice that the list of "the following aren't disabilities" doesn't include pregnancy.

Nowhere in any of these definitions does the term "choice" come into it. Nobody says "you're disabled unless you specifically chose to be so". That's nonsensical.

Being elderly counts for having the seat, while being pregnant doesn't? Why? Because being pregnant is a "choice" but being elderly is just "in the natural course of things"?

Well, yeah, maybe - but I could just as easily say that all those old folks and cripples should kill themselves so that they wouldn't be a burden on society, that by chosing to stay alive and take up seats on the bus, they were showing themselves to be unworthy of special attention. I'd throw up a little as I said it, because *man* is that offensive, but you just *know* there's people out there who think that way.

And logically, what *is* the difference between the old or disabled person who actually does have a miserable life, but is morally opposed to suicide, and the girl who was raped and is morally opposed to abortion? Not much, I'd say. (Not that most old or disabled people *do* have miserable lives, but I can't make the point with happy people who wouldn't contemplate suicide anyway because, y'know, they're happy.)

Lots of people there talking, but none of them really know what they're saying. Tres annoying.

Comments

[xmorningxrosex.livejournal.com]

I see it as a disability is a disability is a disability. It doesn't matter if I've chopped my legs off in hopes to always get good parking, if I am inable to walk/stand then I should have just as much use of disabled access things that any other person with a similar disability would have.

I saw a woman the other day who had a guide dog, and I think she was just training it because she gave it treats every time it sat down and it just looked like a puppy. Anyway, she and the dog got on the bus, and were standing in back a few spots ahead of me. A guy reached over, tapped her, and asked if she wanted his seat. She said that they were fine and all that...but I started thinking it would have been hilarious if he got up to offer his seat, and the puppy jumped up to sit down to avoid getting his tail stepped on by all the people shuffling on and off. :P

[leora.livejournal.com]

It probably is in training. From what I've read, guide dogs start out as puppies cared for by volunteers who take them around to as many different kinds of settings as possible, so that when they are given to a disabled person, they are more likely to deal with lots of situations well. Guide dogs in training get a lot of the same benefits legally as fully trained guide dogs, because the training process is important to having a good working dog. I have a lot of respect for guide animals, in part because they're so useful but also because I'm just impressed with any really well-trained animal, and guide dogs are one of the best examples of superb animal training. Of course, part of it is that they use some of the best dogs - they have to be of good temperment, health, and above average intelligence. A lot of dogs flunk out of guide dog training and simply end up as high quality pets. But still - amazing creatures.

Yes, I ramble with little provocation.

[leora.livejournal.com]

When I was healthy, I'd certainly have given my seat to a pregnant woman. Usuaully I'd offer a seat to someone who was eldery, visibly disabled (I obviously respect invisible disabilities, but I wouldn't be aware of the need), or pregnant - and upon request generally. Nowadays, I would be highly unlikely to give up my seat to any of the above, but that's just because I so often need it so badly. But being disabled, it doesn't bother me for pregnant women to temporarily get some of the same benefits. You can get a temporary handicap placard for being pregnant - and I think that's just. I think that's oodles fairer than creating parking spaces for the disabled and separate parking spaces for pregnant women.

Of course, I do hope to have a child someday - maybe more than one. So, I would theoretically benefit from decent treatment of pregnant women. But I just think it's a mark of civilization to give up things you don't really need to people who very much do need them. There are some exceptions, but they have to do with the person in need engaging in unreasonable behaviors where assisting is enabling. I think having a baby is often a quite reasonable behavior, and if you don't know the details, you certainly can't assume it isn't.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

I didnt know a pregnant woman could get temp tags for parking!

I guess no one told me because I didnt drive? At the very end with Ted I had my pubis bone seperate, I couldn't stand for more than a bit, walking to the bathroom was an effort. It was awful.

I wonder how long it would take to get them, you'd think with the way the government works the baby would be in nursery school before they showed up.

And Ive seen parking for pregnant women/families with small children, they have a stroller instead of a wheelchair in the space. This was in England though. (And I believe it was a courtesy, not a law, not every place had it.)

[conuly]

I'm not sure if every state allows that, though for circumstances like yours (which sounds really painful, and I'm sure that's an understatement) they definitely should.

[leora.livejournal.com]

In the United States, at least in California and I think throughout, getting a handicap placard requires getting a form from the DMV, then getting a doctor to fill it out and sign it and vouch that you have a temporary or permanent need for handicapped parking, and then taking it to the DMV to be processed. I got my placard the same day as I brpught in the form.

The tricky side is that doctors are going to vary on whether they see pregnancy as giving you a temporary need for handicapped parking (I'm fairly sure no decent doctor would mark it as a permanent need). Although if there are complications, it is more likely to be necessary. I think my sister got hers, but only for part of her pregnancy. I am not positive on the details.

I think it's just that people don't think of it. I don't drive, but I have a hang tag/placard. It's very useful. When I travel with someone else, it means we can use handicapped parking, which saves me a lot of energy, which means I'm less likely to end up in horrible pain or lightheaded and short of air.

I find there are a lot of details about temporary and permanent impairments that people often don't know and things I wish I'd known sooner. I hate people who try to take advantage of the system to get benefits they don't need, but I do want people with legitimate needs to get these benefits. And if even a small amount of walking is causing you significant pain, that's a legitimate need.

[adina77.livejournal.com]

in Massachusetts there are parking spots that are for prego women. i mean it has a huge sign that says parking for preganent women only. on the aspalt, it has a pic of a women who is preganent.

[marveen.livejournal.com]

Miss Manners says that when you're on the bus, you should out of courtesy yield your seat first to those with burdens which are acts of God (disability, old age, etc.), then to those with burdens that are self-imposed (shopping, etc.). She also adds that "Miss Manners considers pregnancy an act of God and will not listen to your arguments for putting it into the second category".

Peg Bracken notes that when yielding your seat to an old lady, you have to be careful because she may just consider herself "of a certain age" and could then be insulted by your offer. Ms. Bracken suggests looking at her shoes for a clue--if they're clearly more decorative than functional, let her stand. If she's settled for honest arch support, maybe you should offer your seat.

[sparkofcreation.livejournal.com]

When I was in Spain, I did insult some women by offering them my seat. Even when they were clearly in their 60s or 70s. (Also by using the formal form of address with them—Spain is really informal, so it's almost never used except with the government or elderly people. So using it is calling someone elderly.)

[lakidaa.livejournal.com]

What I didn't like was how the pregnant woman acted.

Commanding? Threatening to vomit on the kid? Yeah, that'll make me want to be a good citizen. Yes, giving up the seat is the right thing to do, but eeew.

Er. Otherwise, I agree with you.

[adina77.livejournal.com]

The disability issue. I've been through this before. I remembered a time on the bus I had a woman who wouldn't move her bag for me to sit down. she said you don't have a disability. i said, yes i do, i can't hear. i needed to sit up front 1) to hear the bus driver make announcements so i can get off at the right stop b/c the back of the bus i can't hear a damn thing. so sitting up front is easier. i hear better. the nice woman who was sitting next her gave up her sit and said i'm getting off the next stop so you can have this seat. i thanked her and the other women got all huffy about it. Turns out the huffy woman was getting off the second stop after the women who gave up her sit. oy vavoi! i think on buses its not clear as to who can have a seat. As regards to pregnant women, if she is HUGE then she needs to sit down. as far as having kids, i debate whether I want them myself.

[conuly]

WTF? You didn't need to have a disability. She needed to move her fucking bags.

[adina77.livejournal.com]

true true......bags arent people that pay for a ride.

[xmorningxrosex.livejournal.com]

I see it as a disability is a disability is a disability. It doesn't matter if I've chopped my legs off in hopes to always get good parking, if I am inable to walk/stand then I should have just as much use of disabled access things that any other person with a similar disability would have.

I saw a woman the other day who had a guide dog, and I think she was just training it because she gave it treats every time it sat down and it just looked like a puppy. Anyway, she and the dog got on the bus, and were standing in back a few spots ahead of me. A guy reached over, tapped her, and asked if she wanted his seat. She said that they were fine and all that...but I started thinking it would have been hilarious if he got up to offer his seat, and the puppy jumped up to sit down to avoid getting his tail stepped on by all the people shuffling on and off. :P

[leora.livejournal.com]

It probably is in training. From what I've read, guide dogs start out as puppies cared for by volunteers who take them around to as many different kinds of settings as possible, so that when they are given to a disabled person, they are more likely to deal with lots of situations well. Guide dogs in training get a lot of the same benefits legally as fully trained guide dogs, because the training process is important to having a good working dog. I have a lot of respect for guide animals, in part because they're so useful but also because I'm just impressed with any really well-trained animal, and guide dogs are one of the best examples of superb animal training. Of course, part of it is that they use some of the best dogs - they have to be of good temperment, health, and above average intelligence. A lot of dogs flunk out of guide dog training and simply end up as high quality pets. But still - amazing creatures.

Yes, I ramble with little provocation.

[leora.livejournal.com]

When I was healthy, I'd certainly have given my seat to a pregnant woman. Usuaully I'd offer a seat to someone who was eldery, visibly disabled (I obviously respect invisible disabilities, but I wouldn't be aware of the need), or pregnant - and upon request generally. Nowadays, I would be highly unlikely to give up my seat to any of the above, but that's just because I so often need it so badly. But being disabled, it doesn't bother me for pregnant women to temporarily get some of the same benefits. You can get a temporary handicap placard for being pregnant - and I think that's just. I think that's oodles fairer than creating parking spaces for the disabled and separate parking spaces for pregnant women.

Of course, I do hope to have a child someday - maybe more than one. So, I would theoretically benefit from decent treatment of pregnant women. But I just think it's a mark of civilization to give up things you don't really need to people who very much do need them. There are some exceptions, but they have to do with the person in need engaging in unreasonable behaviors where assisting is enabling. I think having a baby is often a quite reasonable behavior, and if you don't know the details, you certainly can't assume it isn't.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

I didnt know a pregnant woman could get temp tags for parking!

I guess no one told me because I didnt drive? At the very end with Ted I had my pubis bone seperate, I couldn't stand for more than a bit, walking to the bathroom was an effort. It was awful.

I wonder how long it would take to get them, you'd think with the way the government works the baby would be in nursery school before they showed up.

And Ive seen parking for pregnant women/families with small children, they have a stroller instead of a wheelchair in the space. This was in England though. (And I believe it was a courtesy, not a law, not every place had it.)

[conuly]

I'm not sure if every state allows that, though for circumstances like yours (which sounds really painful, and I'm sure that's an understatement) they definitely should.

[leora.livejournal.com]

In the United States, at least in California and I think throughout, getting a handicap placard requires getting a form from the DMV, then getting a doctor to fill it out and sign it and vouch that you have a temporary or permanent need for handicapped parking, and then taking it to the DMV to be processed. I got my placard the same day as I brpught in the form.

The tricky side is that doctors are going to vary on whether they see pregnancy as giving you a temporary need for handicapped parking (I'm fairly sure no decent doctor would mark it as a permanent need). Although if there are complications, it is more likely to be necessary. I think my sister got hers, but only for part of her pregnancy. I am not positive on the details.

I think it's just that people don't think of it. I don't drive, but I have a hang tag/placard. It's very useful. When I travel with someone else, it means we can use handicapped parking, which saves me a lot of energy, which means I'm less likely to end up in horrible pain or lightheaded and short of air.

I find there are a lot of details about temporary and permanent impairments that people often don't know and things I wish I'd known sooner. I hate people who try to take advantage of the system to get benefits they don't need, but I do want people with legitimate needs to get these benefits. And if even a small amount of walking is causing you significant pain, that's a legitimate need.

[adina77.livejournal.com]

in Massachusetts there are parking spots that are for prego women. i mean it has a huge sign that says parking for preganent women only. on the aspalt, it has a pic of a women who is preganent.

[marveen.livejournal.com]

Miss Manners says that when you're on the bus, you should out of courtesy yield your seat first to those with burdens which are acts of God (disability, old age, etc.), then to those with burdens that are self-imposed (shopping, etc.). She also adds that "Miss Manners considers pregnancy an act of God and will not listen to your arguments for putting it into the second category".

Peg Bracken notes that when yielding your seat to an old lady, you have to be careful because she may just consider herself "of a certain age" and could then be insulted by your offer. Ms. Bracken suggests looking at her shoes for a clue--if they're clearly more decorative than functional, let her stand. If she's settled for honest arch support, maybe you should offer your seat.

[sparkofcreation.livejournal.com]

When I was in Spain, I did insult some women by offering them my seat. Even when they were clearly in their 60s or 70s. (Also by using the formal form of address with them—Spain is really informal, so it's almost never used except with the government or elderly people. So using it is calling someone elderly.)

[lakidaa.livejournal.com]

What I didn't like was how the pregnant woman acted.

Commanding? Threatening to vomit on the kid? Yeah, that'll make me want to be a good citizen. Yes, giving up the seat is the right thing to do, but eeew.

Er. Otherwise, I agree with you.

[adina77.livejournal.com]

The disability issue. I've been through this before. I remembered a time on the bus I had a woman who wouldn't move her bag for me to sit down. she said you don't have a disability. i said, yes i do, i can't hear. i needed to sit up front 1) to hear the bus driver make announcements so i can get off at the right stop b/c the back of the bus i can't hear a damn thing. so sitting up front is easier. i hear better. the nice woman who was sitting next her gave up her sit and said i'm getting off the next stop so you can have this seat. i thanked her and the other women got all huffy about it. Turns out the huffy woman was getting off the second stop after the women who gave up her sit. oy vavoi! i think on buses its not clear as to who can have a seat. As regards to pregnant women, if she is HUGE then she needs to sit down. as far as having kids, i debate whether I want them myself.

[conuly]

WTF? You didn't need to have a disability. She needed to move her fucking bags.

[adina77.livejournal.com]

true true......bags arent people that pay for a ride.