Latest terrorist attack in Israel...
Aug. 4th, 2005 09:39 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
conuly
Here's my somewhat uneducated take on the whole thing.
It is very difficult to maintain any sort of moral standing when you kill civilians. It is even harder when you do so indiscriminately.
I suspect that the Palestinian terrorists (as compared to the Palestinians who are peacefully acting for change, remember that Palestinian and terrorist are not synonomous) know this. That would explain why suicide bombing is such a popular method - at the very least, when all is said and done, you can stand up and say (metaphorically, because you're dead) "Look what you drove me to. I died for my cause". Standing up and shooting civilians with a machinegun? Not so much. In fact, not at all. Afterwards, everybody who supports your ideas is scrambling to distance themselves from you, because you just made them all look bad, and people have this annoying tendancy to look at the people who support an idea, rather than the idea itself. (This is not meant to defend that action. Regardless of the reason behind terrorist acts, I don't support it. I'm simply trying to understand it.)
Which, really, is why terrorism is wrong. No, not because it's unethical and immoral (that really should go without saying, but the fact that people do it indicates that it needs to be said), but because, like so many things, it's counterproductive. You kill them, they come back and kill you, then both sides dig in their heels and refuse to compromise because "OMG! TEH EBIL!" and nothing is accomplished except lots of people die. And then, when you go to outsiders for help, they look and say "Um, yeah, you're all mean and all? And you, like, kill people? And I just can't support that."
Stupid.
Mind, I'm a bit ignorant, so posting just to say that is Not Helpful. If you have a correction to make, with something to back it up, that'd be useful.
In a related issue, I hate phrases like "Israel's reactions are not always compatible with the norms of international law". If you want to say that Israel, in response to terrorism (by Palestinians, as I don't think, for some reason, that this latest attack is going to result in any Israeli deaths at the hands of Israelis) are often illegal, just say that and stop pretending that nobody will understand you if you Newspeak the whole thing. God, I hate that!
Additionally, it's a stupid thing to say. You can stand up and say "Terrorism is bad" without subsequently saying "And Israel is right". Indeed, you can put them both in the same sentence: "I condemn these terrorist attacks by people who aren't of my religion and probably won't listen to what I say, but at the same time I disagree with the actions of the government the terrorists are opposing, also primarily people who aren't my religion and probably won't listen to what I say, especially if they get it into their heads to remember the whole Hitler Youth thing". See how simple that is?
And, finally, since I'm in rant mode, let me conclude with a class I had a while back. At one point in this class, we were discussing the history of Israel as a modern state. And the issue of non-Zionist Jews came up, which caused a great deal of consternation by people who really ought to know better. They weren't even stupid people, but we spent way too much time repeating this basic conversation:
Student: But... they were Jews! So shouldn't they support Israel?
Professor: Well, not every Jewish person thinks there's legal or religious support for the state of Israel. In fact, many Jewish people were or are against the state of Israel as it exists now.
Student: But... why, if they're Jewish?
Professor: Because they didn't see any legal or religious basis for it.
Student: Oh. But aren't they Jews?
Until I wanted to scream. Loudly.
It is very difficult to maintain any sort of moral standing when you kill civilians. It is even harder when you do so indiscriminately.
I suspect that the Palestinian terrorists (as compared to the Palestinians who are peacefully acting for change, remember that Palestinian and terrorist are not synonomous) know this. That would explain why suicide bombing is such a popular method - at the very least, when all is said and done, you can stand up and say (metaphorically, because you're dead) "Look what you drove me to. I died for my cause". Standing up and shooting civilians with a machinegun? Not so much. In fact, not at all. Afterwards, everybody who supports your ideas is scrambling to distance themselves from you, because you just made them all look bad, and people have this annoying tendancy to look at the people who support an idea, rather than the idea itself. (This is not meant to defend that action. Regardless of the reason behind terrorist acts, I don't support it. I'm simply trying to understand it.)
Which, really, is why terrorism is wrong. No, not because it's unethical and immoral (that really should go without saying, but the fact that people do it indicates that it needs to be said), but because, like so many things, it's counterproductive. You kill them, they come back and kill you, then both sides dig in their heels and refuse to compromise because "OMG! TEH EBIL!" and nothing is accomplished except lots of people die. And then, when you go to outsiders for help, they look and say "Um, yeah, you're all mean and all? And you, like, kill people? And I just can't support that."
Stupid.
Mind, I'm a bit ignorant, so posting just to say that is Not Helpful. If you have a correction to make, with something to back it up, that'd be useful.
In a related issue, I hate phrases like "Israel's reactions are not always compatible with the norms of international law". If you want to say that Israel, in response to terrorism (by Palestinians, as I don't think, for some reason, that this latest attack is going to result in any Israeli deaths at the hands of Israelis) are often illegal, just say that and stop pretending that nobody will understand you if you Newspeak the whole thing. God, I hate that!
Additionally, it's a stupid thing to say. You can stand up and say "Terrorism is bad" without subsequently saying "And Israel is right". Indeed, you can put them both in the same sentence: "I condemn these terrorist attacks by people who aren't of my religion and probably won't listen to what I say, but at the same time I disagree with the actions of the government the terrorists are opposing, also primarily people who aren't my religion and probably won't listen to what I say, especially if they get it into their heads to remember the whole Hitler Youth thing". See how simple that is?
And, finally, since I'm in rant mode, let me conclude with a class I had a while back. At one point in this class, we were discussing the history of Israel as a modern state. And the issue of non-Zionist Jews came up, which caused a great deal of consternation by people who really ought to know better. They weren't even stupid people, but we spent way too much time repeating this basic conversation:
Student: But... they were Jews! So shouldn't they support Israel?
Professor: Well, not every Jewish person thinks there's legal or religious support for the state of Israel. In fact, many Jewish people were or are against the state of Israel as it exists now.
Student: But... why, if they're Jewish?
Professor: Because they didn't see any legal or religious basis for it.
Student: Oh. But aren't they Jews?
Until I wanted to scream. Loudly.
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no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 04:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 05:16 am (UTC)Actually, I recall seeing a reference to a terrorism study recently. The type of bombings we're seeing DOES work sometimes, maybe about 50% of the time. The point, of course, is not to kill the enemy but make it just too costly for them to continue to occupy your land. Suicide bombing is almost always the result of foreign occupation by a more advanced "Goliath", and the only way "David" can strike back, violently, is through this kind of asymmetric warfare.
It's a sign of desperation, which is an indicator of how bad the oppression is perceived. It's a case of either sit by and watch yourself get slaughtered, or strap on a bomb.
The fact that it's happening in Iraq on a more-than-weekly basis shows just how fucked things are in that poor country.
no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 05:17 am (UTC)Well, damn.
(I'm still pretty much against it on ethical grounds. Whatever happened to passive resistance and satyagraha and the rest?)
Where's that study?
no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 06:01 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 06:14 am (UTC)Still looking now for the details.
--Kynn
no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 06:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 03:24 pm (UTC)Short summary: the man can collect data, but doesn't seem to be able to interpret shit.
no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 04:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 05:16 am (UTC)Actually, I recall seeing a reference to a terrorism study recently. The type of bombings we're seeing DOES work sometimes, maybe about 50% of the time. The point, of course, is not to kill the enemy but make it just too costly for them to continue to occupy your land. Suicide bombing is almost always the result of foreign occupation by a more advanced "Goliath", and the only way "David" can strike back, violently, is through this kind of asymmetric warfare.
It's a sign of desperation, which is an indicator of how bad the oppression is perceived. It's a case of either sit by and watch yourself get slaughtered, or strap on a bomb.
The fact that it's happening in Iraq on a more-than-weekly basis shows just how fucked things are in that poor country.
no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 05:17 am (UTC)Well, damn.
(I'm still pretty much against it on ethical grounds. Whatever happened to passive resistance and satyagraha and the rest?)
Where's that study?
no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 06:01 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 06:14 am (UTC)Still looking now for the details.
--Kynn
no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 06:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 03:24 pm (UTC)Short summary: the man can collect data, but doesn't seem to be able to interpret shit.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-06 03:41 am (UTC)International relations isn't governed by laws, it's governed by norms, and so it's more accurate to say Israel's actions fall outside those than to suggest that someone's going to come by and arrest the Israeli army (I wonder where I put Jingo).
*That's not strictly true, but the class spent weeks on this.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-06 03:50 am (UTC)What's your criteria for dropping people, out of curiosity? (That wouldn't affect my attitudes or posts, but I'm, well, curious)
no subject
Date: 2006-01-06 02:32 pm (UTC)In general, dropping people other than for the usual LJ reasons*? I won't read right-wingers or anyone with political positions that are going to annoy me (counting homophobia and classism as political positions).
*e.g., too much drama, too dull (and I like dull)
no subject
Date: 2006-01-07 01:45 am (UTC)Or, as I like to put it, a stupid view (which is pretty un-nuanced in and of itself, but I think you can forgive me :P)
Got it. Well, that's not likely to happen. Thanks. I've little else to say, so... uh... wanna buy a duck?
no subject
Date: 2006-01-06 03:41 am (UTC)International relations isn't governed by laws, it's governed by norms, and so it's more accurate to say Israel's actions fall outside those than to suggest that someone's going to come by and arrest the Israeli army (I wonder where I put Jingo).
*That's not strictly true, but the class spent weeks on this.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-06 03:50 am (UTC)What's your criteria for dropping people, out of curiosity? (That wouldn't affect my attitudes or posts, but I'm, well, curious)
no subject
Date: 2006-01-06 02:32 pm (UTC)In general, dropping people other than for the usual LJ reasons*? I won't read right-wingers or anyone with political positions that are going to annoy me (counting homophobia and classism as political positions).
*e.g., too much drama, too dull (and I like dull)
no subject
Date: 2006-01-07 01:45 am (UTC)Or, as I like to put it, a stupid view (which is pretty un-nuanced in and of itself, but I think you can forgive me :P)
Got it. Well, that's not likely to happen. Thanks. I've little else to say, so... uh... wanna buy a duck?