Y'know, I'm glad she was able to stop a destructive habit.

[conuly]

Really. But... I don't know. It's always seemed a little arrogant, mihi, to attribute everything good to God. No, really. Instead of being humble (I couldn't've done it without His help!") it sounds more like "God took the time to help me. I'm very special because of this. If you aren't being helped by God, it's because there's something wrong with you".

And something else. If God is running around stopping people from smoking and tanning and eating too much, why isn't he also stopping them from being hateful, robbing the poor, and killing each other? Or aren't those important enough to merit God's personal interference?

Comments

[the-cynic.livejournal.com]

And something else. If God is running around stopping people from smoking and tanning and eating too much, why isn't he also stopping them from being hateful, robbing the poor, and killing each other? Or aren't those important enough to merit God's personal interference?

He's too busy answering all the basketball players who need to make a free throw or the baseball players who need a hit to deal with minor issues like war, famine, etc.

[conuly]

Clearly.

And that's another thing! WHY do people pray before sporting events? What does this prove? That God is a Yankees fan? Or was, anyway?

Isn't one of the arguments against gambling that it causes people to pray for the wrong reasons?

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

I admit to being faintly creeped out, for the same reason that you find it faintly arrogant.

I have a very strong Mediterranian heritage (My father was a Greek immigrant to the US), and as a result, tan very easily. All it takes for me to get that "healthy glow" is to spend a nice, normal, 10 to 15 minutes in the sun every few days. Ironically, I have always wanted to be paler than I am.... Argh. ~_~

[stagemanager.livejournal.com]

I hate to ask this, 'cuz I'm gonna look stupid and all, but what's "mihi"?

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

I always assumed she meant "in my opinion"?

I accidentaly picked it up, and that's how I've been using it, anyway.

[wakasplat.livejournal.com]

I think it's "to me". In Latin.

[conuly]

Both spacemuffin and wakasplat are correct. It is the dative of ego in Latin, meaning "to/for me", and I use it to mean "in my opinion", which is one way it can be used.

[wakasplat.livejournal.com]

And something else. If God is running around stopping people from smoking and tanning and eating too much, why isn't he also stopping them from being hateful, robbing the poor, and killing each other? Or aren't those important enough to merit God's personal interference?

I actually know someone who was ready to kill a bunch of people — literally had the gun in their hand and was getting ready to do it — and attributes the fact that they didn't to divine interference (which involved more than just saying "Don't kill them"). They don't attribute that to being special or get particularly arrogant about it though. They just see it as that's how it happened for whatever reason, and say that if it's psychosis that prevented them from killing people, well then more people ought to be psychotic.

But... yeah. The amount of people willing to attribute various weird things to God really confuses me, especially when it's said in a way that implies there's something wrong with the people they're not happening to. That's similar to the people who claim that if someone's disabled then it's because they don't have enough faith — I'm really uncomfortable around that one for obvious reasons.

[leora.livejournal.com]

Well, if you're about to hurt others, you also have a get out of arrogance free card if you choose to play it - because you can say that you believe god interfered on behalf of the other people, not because you're so special, but because killing people is very, very bad. The downside of that is, of course, well what about the people that do get killed and there is no interference? So, it doesn't work that well. But at least it isn't: look at me! I'm going to show how the bad things I do only show how truly saintly I am.

[conuly]

Killing people gets you a special out from the arrogance thing, just like leora said. I'll even agree that "I didn't kill myself because of God" is a fair sentiment.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

I thought it was a nice story, she didn't seem arrogant, to me.

And what makes you think God isn't behind at least some people trying to make a difference and stopping that? Even if God is involved, people like that believe that you have to listen. God may be talking, but a lot of people (including IMHO a lot of fundies) are sticking their fingers in their ears and going lalalalalala -- or even just cant hear him over the sounds of their own voices.

I guess I'm acting too Quakerly, now -- thinking the best way to listen for that voice is to sit in silence. ;)

[conuly]

That could well be true. My view on this doesn't have much to do about God but on the people who say "God helped me do this". So God really could be trying to help people with both great and little things. I don't know. But most of the people I've met who say that strike me the wrong way, so... here comes my opinion.

[rainbow-goddess.livejournal.com]

If God is running around stopping people from smoking and tanning and eating too much, why isn't he also stopping them from being hateful, robbing the poor, and killing each other

Because they didn't ask for God's help. Humans have free will, and some exercise that free will in ways that hurt other humans. It would be nice if God stopped them from doing that, but sadly, God doesn't. If God did, we wouldn't have had to live with the B.C. Liberals for the past four years.

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

Hypothetical question, and please don't take it the wrong way, it's just something I've personally been struggling with, and am trying to get as many answers as I can:

If humans have "free will", then this would indicate a lack of control on God's part, but since God, being a god, has complete control, wouldn't that indicate that we do not truly have "free will"?

If this is the case, and we do not really have free will, it seems like a logical following that God rather expects us to act as we do, or otherwise puppets us about the Earth, which would mean he could indeed stop all the evil in the world quite easily. Since God does not, and this is apparently evident of our "free will", then God does not have complete control and is, therefore, not really a god, yes?

Then, to say that the evil in the world is a result of our "free will" that it exists so that we may learn about God seems contradictory, as God is, being a god, in complete control...

Well...That last part really doesn't make any sense - although that's likely the result of too little sleep and a deep, pressing desire for a ham sandwich - but I hope the rest makes a little sense at least.

[l33tminion]

What about natural disasters and disease? (Not that the free will theodicy works with regards to human caused suffering, but it more clearly doesn't work with suffering caused by nature.)

[the-cynic.livejournal.com]

And something else. If God is running around stopping people from smoking and tanning and eating too much, why isn't he also stopping them from being hateful, robbing the poor, and killing each other? Or aren't those important enough to merit God's personal interference?

He's too busy answering all the basketball players who need to make a free throw or the baseball players who need a hit to deal with minor issues like war, famine, etc.

[conuly]

Clearly.

And that's another thing! WHY do people pray before sporting events? What does this prove? That God is a Yankees fan? Or was, anyway?

Isn't one of the arguments against gambling that it causes people to pray for the wrong reasons?

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

I admit to being faintly creeped out, for the same reason that you find it faintly arrogant.

I have a very strong Mediterranian heritage (My father was a Greek immigrant to the US), and as a result, tan very easily. All it takes for me to get that "healthy glow" is to spend a nice, normal, 10 to 15 minutes in the sun every few days. Ironically, I have always wanted to be paler than I am.... Argh. ~_~

[stagemanager.livejournal.com]

I hate to ask this, 'cuz I'm gonna look stupid and all, but what's "mihi"?

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

I always assumed she meant "in my opinion"?

I accidentaly picked it up, and that's how I've been using it, anyway.

[wakasplat.livejournal.com]

I think it's "to me". In Latin.

[conuly]

Both spacemuffin and wakasplat are correct. It is the dative of ego in Latin, meaning "to/for me", and I use it to mean "in my opinion", which is one way it can be used.

[wakasplat.livejournal.com]

And something else. If God is running around stopping people from smoking and tanning and eating too much, why isn't he also stopping them from being hateful, robbing the poor, and killing each other? Or aren't those important enough to merit God's personal interference?

I actually know someone who was ready to kill a bunch of people — literally had the gun in their hand and was getting ready to do it — and attributes the fact that they didn't to divine interference (which involved more than just saying "Don't kill them"). They don't attribute that to being special or get particularly arrogant about it though. They just see it as that's how it happened for whatever reason, and say that if it's psychosis that prevented them from killing people, well then more people ought to be psychotic.

But... yeah. The amount of people willing to attribute various weird things to God really confuses me, especially when it's said in a way that implies there's something wrong with the people they're not happening to. That's similar to the people who claim that if someone's disabled then it's because they don't have enough faith — I'm really uncomfortable around that one for obvious reasons.

[leora.livejournal.com]

Well, if you're about to hurt others, you also have a get out of arrogance free card if you choose to play it - because you can say that you believe god interfered on behalf of the other people, not because you're so special, but because killing people is very, very bad. The downside of that is, of course, well what about the people that do get killed and there is no interference? So, it doesn't work that well. But at least it isn't: look at me! I'm going to show how the bad things I do only show how truly saintly I am.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

I thought it was a nice story, she didn't seem arrogant, to me.

And what makes you think God isn't behind at least some people trying to make a difference and stopping that? Even if God is involved, people like that believe that you have to listen. God may be talking, but a lot of people (including IMHO a lot of fundies) are sticking their fingers in their ears and going lalalalalala -- or even just cant hear him over the sounds of their own voices.

I guess I'm acting too Quakerly, now -- thinking the best way to listen for that voice is to sit in silence. ;)

[conuly]

That could well be true. My view on this doesn't have much to do about God but on the people who say "God helped me do this". So God really could be trying to help people with both great and little things. I don't know. But most of the people I've met who say that strike me the wrong way, so... here comes my opinion.

[rainbow-goddess.livejournal.com]

If God is running around stopping people from smoking and tanning and eating too much, why isn't he also stopping them from being hateful, robbing the poor, and killing each other

Because they didn't ask for God's help. Humans have free will, and some exercise that free will in ways that hurt other humans. It would be nice if God stopped them from doing that, but sadly, God doesn't. If God did, we wouldn't have had to live with the B.C. Liberals for the past four years.

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

Hypothetical question, and please don't take it the wrong way, it's just something I've personally been struggling with, and am trying to get as many answers as I can:

If humans have "free will", then this would indicate a lack of control on God's part, but since God, being a god, has complete control, wouldn't that indicate that we do not truly have "free will"?

If this is the case, and we do not really have free will, it seems like a logical following that God rather expects us to act as we do, or otherwise puppets us about the Earth, which would mean he could indeed stop all the evil in the world quite easily. Since God does not, and this is apparently evident of our "free will", then God does not have complete control and is, therefore, not really a god, yes?

Then, to say that the evil in the world is a result of our "free will" that it exists so that we may learn about God seems contradictory, as God is, being a god, in complete control...

Well...That last part really doesn't make any sense - although that's likely the result of too little sleep and a deep, pressing desire for a ham sandwich - but I hope the rest makes a little sense at least.