On makeup and beauty pagents

[conuly]

I have no opinion on beauty pagents for children. My gut feeling is that if the parents aren't forcing the kid into it, or sacrificing their education/friends/family for it, there's no problem. But I'm open to discussion.

However, if you're going to complain, please stop complaining about the makeup. Yes, I *know* that when you see a little girl with that much makeup on, you think it looks like they're forcing the kid to grow up. Yes, I know you associate that sort of makeup with prostitution and sex and what else. But you're seeing a kid with natural lighting, close up. You're not seeing that same kid when they're up on stage and you're in the audience. The sort of makeup that looks overdone in real life is barely visible when you get up on stage - and it's just enough to make you noticeable to the people in the back row. For real life, it's a lot of makeup. For stage? It's nothing. Once you're under those lights, it all fades away. No, really. Find something else to complain about.

Comments

[cumaeansibyl.livejournal.com]

It's not the makeup -- I know stage makeup, so that doesn't bother me so much, even though it does look a bit funny. It's more that I'm uncomfortable with the truly sexualized elements of adult beauty pageants that show up, like the swimsuit contest. Having a five-year-old girl in a swimsuit or a slinky evening gown doesn't make any kind of sense to me. The reason for those competitions in the adult pageant world is to evaluate the physical appeal of the contestants's bodies -- what other reason can there be? -- and I don't really think anyone needs to be doing that with prepubescent children.

[conuly]

That complaint makes sense. The makeup thing irritates me beyond belief.

[leora.livejournal.com]

Uh but isn't that the point of a beauty pageant? It's to evaluate the physical appeal of someone. So, it's not the competitions themselves but the pageant itself that does that.

Although I do think you can evaluate physical beauty without treating it sexually... that is - I believe it is possible for that to be done - but I don't think most people will do that.

[cumaeansibyl.livejournal.com]

Well, my point. Why are we evaluating children on their physical appeal at all? I've got no problem with "Cutest Baby" contests, that sort of thing, because that has to do with the kid's face, but beyond that I just don't think we ought to be paying attention to the attractiveness of children's bodies. I mean, most kids look exactly the same at that age anyway, male or female -- knobby knees and pudgy bellies and soforth -- so what's the point?

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

What about when you are looking at when they have portraits done? The lighting should work similar to stage lighting, or the parents/MUA should adjust accordingly.

When they have too much for a photo taken by a professional, they have too much makeup on.

[stejcruetekie.livejournal.com]

That's not quite accurate. The point of makeup on stage is to project features over a distance. Portrait shots are up close, so you really don't need near as much makeup.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

But what I am trying to say is if they are having portraits/headshots done, why are they overly made up?

[conuly]

My feeling is that 1. often the photos are taken right before or after a pagent, and parents feel it's easier to put the makeup on before the photo/not take it off and 2. once you start doing that, it's easier to be consistent if the makeup's always on in those portraits.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

I'd have to see a pagent live, I suppose, but it just doesn't sit right with me, from a technical standpoint as far as photos go.

And wouldnt you want your kid to look good in the headshots?

I suppose it could be worse, could be the like the photos on some of those 'little girl model' sites. Those look really creepy and the kids sometimes look drugged or SOMETHING.

[conuly]

I don't know from beauty pagents, but I remember our dance recitals, and skating. Jenn, of course, is insanely pale, but even so, you wouldn't *believe* the amount of makeup you put on to just look *normal* when you're up on stage. (Jenn notwithstanding, even people with non-plaster skin need to put on tons of makeup.)

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

I have a vague idea, from when I thought it would be fun to be in a band for a couple of months. :D

But I also know how much lighting is used (in at least some circumstances) by professional photographers, and that to look that heavy and actually have prints made, with no one saying 'hey, wait a minute' is odd.

It's funny too, just looked at a friend's LJ and he has a closeup shot from a runway show he shot, and while the special effects makeup (there was a theme to the show) was bright, the regular eye/cheek/lips looked ok.

Of course they're older so it probably doesn't look that bad anyways.

He also does a lot of before/after show candids, of them getting made up, etc. Besides learning a hell of a lot from him on the technical side (although I can't see myself getting into portraits), I like the behind the scenes look at fashion shows.

Way to drift a thread, kibbles!

[divabat.livejournal.com]

I had potraits done and I had TONS of makeup on. The lights used are REALLY BRIGHT and if there isn't enough makeup on, the person looks really washed out and pale.

The makeup isn't that noticeable when the photos are done.

[divabat.livejournal.com]

And oh, I have medium brown skin.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

But it is noticed on the portraits of these pagent kids, so I do think they ARE trying to make the kids look like that.

I'm a photographer, I may not make a lot of money off it yet, but I do know that they use a lot of lighting, often, and it does wash you out.

[lakidaa.livejournal.com]

My main complaint is that the parents that get into it are more often of the forcing kind than the, um. Not-forcing kind.

My problem is with the 'soccer moms'. You know, the ones that try to/force their kid to always be doing something with little/no downtime. and the parents are freaky-involved in this.

Sometimes, when I'm being down and cranky, I think that the kids aren't really doing anything; it's the parents that are competing. (competeing?).

Y'know? when I see really little, like kindergarten, my 'Oh Really'-meter pings up. Most kids that age just aren't into being Lil'Miss X, or Lil'Sir Y. Most are interested in Dinsoaurs.

...I swear, every kid in kindergarten loved Dinosaurs. I know I did *still has her dino books*

[conuly]

In this case, they're stage mothers, a far older and "nobler" (?) term than soccer mom.

[innerbrat]

Maybe I should have posted this in the reply to lakidaa, but never mind. I agree with herhimit.

I was a drama kid. I did drama festivals annually and dragged my parents along to them. They sat in the back, clapped at my performance and then in the car on the way back told me I was the best, in their humble opinion.

Then, and even more so now, I hate drama mums, and their brattish kids. I hated seeing people take the damn thing so seriously. Especially as they usually weren't the best or the most talented.

I saw similar things with equestrianism (don't forget I'm a Home Counties Englishwoman, not a Rural USian, so the horsey culture is different.) I just wanted to ride the horse, and get messy. They wanted to be the best at it. It irritated me.

From what I've seen, the child pageant culture seems to take this even further.

[lakidaa.livejournal.com]

...True. 9_9 Stage moms.

They're still not cool. at all.

[innerbrat]

I love you for still having your dinosaur books. Mostly because I've never grown out of the phase of wanting to be a palaeontologist, to the extent that I'm now doing a PhD, waiting for someone to tell me to grow up.

[lakidaa.livejournal.com]

:P

Dinosaurs rizzok the hizzouse.

I think I mixed my bad lingo there, but I think you got it.

[rachelkachel]

Yeah, when my little sister (11) does ballet she gets a bit of makeup - not actually a whole lot, but it seems like way too much. (But then, nobody in my family really wears makeup at all.) Anyway, like you said, she looks fine from a distance.

Amen, sister!

[takaal.livejournal.com]

*ClapClapClapClapClap!*

That drives me nuts - I was a child model, of my own volition, and *had* to stop when the planes of my face 'broke' the wrong way in puberty. For some shoots, to look "natural" in front of the camera, under the lights, I swear I was wearing an inch-thick mask of cosmetics... but I looked on film just as I did without the make-up off film. The same thing applies to child pageants, child acting... anything where a child is going to be in front of a camera or on a stage professionally.

And gee... IT'S THE SAME THING FOR ADULTS.

[cumaeansibyl.livejournal.com]

It's not the makeup -- I know stage makeup, so that doesn't bother me so much, even though it does look a bit funny. It's more that I'm uncomfortable with the truly sexualized elements of adult beauty pageants that show up, like the swimsuit contest. Having a five-year-old girl in a swimsuit or a slinky evening gown doesn't make any kind of sense to me. The reason for those competitions in the adult pageant world is to evaluate the physical appeal of the contestants's bodies -- what other reason can there be? -- and I don't really think anyone needs to be doing that with prepubescent children.

[conuly]

That complaint makes sense. The makeup thing irritates me beyond belief.

[leora.livejournal.com]

Uh but isn't that the point of a beauty pageant? It's to evaluate the physical appeal of someone. So, it's not the competitions themselves but the pageant itself that does that.

Although I do think you can evaluate physical beauty without treating it sexually... that is - I believe it is possible for that to be done - but I don't think most people will do that.

[cumaeansibyl.livejournal.com]

Well, my point. Why are we evaluating children on their physical appeal at all? I've got no problem with "Cutest Baby" contests, that sort of thing, because that has to do with the kid's face, but beyond that I just don't think we ought to be paying attention to the attractiveness of children's bodies. I mean, most kids look exactly the same at that age anyway, male or female -- knobby knees and pudgy bellies and soforth -- so what's the point?

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

What about when you are looking at when they have portraits done? The lighting should work similar to stage lighting, or the parents/MUA should adjust accordingly.

When they have too much for a photo taken by a professional, they have too much makeup on.

[stejcruetekie.livejournal.com]

That's not quite accurate. The point of makeup on stage is to project features over a distance. Portrait shots are up close, so you really don't need near as much makeup.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

But what I am trying to say is if they are having portraits/headshots done, why are they overly made up?

[conuly]

My feeling is that 1. often the photos are taken right before or after a pagent, and parents feel it's easier to put the makeup on before the photo/not take it off and 2. once you start doing that, it's easier to be consistent if the makeup's always on in those portraits.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

I'd have to see a pagent live, I suppose, but it just doesn't sit right with me, from a technical standpoint as far as photos go.

And wouldnt you want your kid to look good in the headshots?

I suppose it could be worse, could be the like the photos on some of those 'little girl model' sites. Those look really creepy and the kids sometimes look drugged or SOMETHING.

[conuly]

I don't know from beauty pagents, but I remember our dance recitals, and skating. Jenn, of course, is insanely pale, but even so, you wouldn't *believe* the amount of makeup you put on to just look *normal* when you're up on stage. (Jenn notwithstanding, even people with non-plaster skin need to put on tons of makeup.)

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

I have a vague idea, from when I thought it would be fun to be in a band for a couple of months. :D

But I also know how much lighting is used (in at least some circumstances) by professional photographers, and that to look that heavy and actually have prints made, with no one saying 'hey, wait a minute' is odd.

It's funny too, just looked at a friend's LJ and he has a closeup shot from a runway show he shot, and while the special effects makeup (there was a theme to the show) was bright, the regular eye/cheek/lips looked ok.

Of course they're older so it probably doesn't look that bad anyways.

He also does a lot of before/after show candids, of them getting made up, etc. Besides learning a hell of a lot from him on the technical side (although I can't see myself getting into portraits), I like the behind the scenes look at fashion shows.

Way to drift a thread, kibbles!

[divabat.livejournal.com]

I had potraits done and I had TONS of makeup on. The lights used are REALLY BRIGHT and if there isn't enough makeup on, the person looks really washed out and pale.

The makeup isn't that noticeable when the photos are done.

[divabat.livejournal.com]

And oh, I have medium brown skin.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

But it is noticed on the portraits of these pagent kids, so I do think they ARE trying to make the kids look like that.

I'm a photographer, I may not make a lot of money off it yet, but I do know that they use a lot of lighting, often, and it does wash you out.

[lakidaa.livejournal.com]

My main complaint is that the parents that get into it are more often of the forcing kind than the, um. Not-forcing kind.

My problem is with the 'soccer moms'. You know, the ones that try to/force their kid to always be doing something with little/no downtime. and the parents are freaky-involved in this.

Sometimes, when I'm being down and cranky, I think that the kids aren't really doing anything; it's the parents that are competing. (competeing?).

Y'know? when I see really little, like kindergarten, my 'Oh Really'-meter pings up. Most kids that age just aren't into being Lil'Miss X, or Lil'Sir Y. Most are interested in Dinsoaurs.

...I swear, every kid in kindergarten loved Dinosaurs. I know I did *still has her dino books*

[conuly]

In this case, they're stage mothers, a far older and "nobler" (?) term than soccer mom.

[innerbrat]

Maybe I should have posted this in the reply to lakidaa, but never mind. I agree with herhimit.

I was a drama kid. I did drama festivals annually and dragged my parents along to them. They sat in the back, clapped at my performance and then in the car on the way back told me I was the best, in their humble opinion.

Then, and even more so now, I hate drama mums, and their brattish kids. I hated seeing people take the damn thing so seriously. Especially as they usually weren't the best or the most talented.

I saw similar things with equestrianism (don't forget I'm a Home Counties Englishwoman, not a Rural USian, so the horsey culture is different.) I just wanted to ride the horse, and get messy. They wanted to be the best at it. It irritated me.

From what I've seen, the child pageant culture seems to take this even further.

[lakidaa.livejournal.com]

...True. 9_9 Stage moms.

They're still not cool. at all.

[innerbrat]

I love you for still having your dinosaur books. Mostly because I've never grown out of the phase of wanting to be a palaeontologist, to the extent that I'm now doing a PhD, waiting for someone to tell me to grow up.

[lakidaa.livejournal.com]

:P

Dinosaurs rizzok the hizzouse.

I think I mixed my bad lingo there, but I think you got it.

[rachelkachel]

Yeah, when my little sister (11) does ballet she gets a bit of makeup - not actually a whole lot, but it seems like way too much. (But then, nobody in my family really wears makeup at all.) Anyway, like you said, she looks fine from a distance.

Amen, sister!

[takaal.livejournal.com]

*ClapClapClapClapClap!*

That drives me nuts - I was a child model, of my own volition, and *had* to stop when the planes of my face 'broke' the wrong way in puberty. For some shoots, to look "natural" in front of the camera, under the lights, I swear I was wearing an inch-thick mask of cosmetics... but I looked on film just as I did without the make-up off film. The same thing applies to child pageants, child acting... anything where a child is going to be in front of a camera or on a stage professionally.

And gee... IT'S THE SAME THING FOR ADULTS.