A certain community has made some posts I want to reply to...

[conuly]

Oh, somebody in the back of the class was nursing her baby, and it offended me so much!

I agree, babies should not routinely be in college classrooms, but the only way you know she was breastfeeding and not bottlefeeding is if you turned around and looked. You don't wanna be upset, don't look. Would you rather she'd let the kid cry?

Oh, somebody in the restaurant was nursing her baby, ugh! She should go to the bathroom to do that!

Most people are very discreet about it, covering with cloth and turning in towards the booth. It's possible this person wasn't, but your solution still sucks. Not only is the bathroom extremely unhygenic, and a terrible place to eat your lunch, but do you really want this woman to clog up a stall, or in some restaurants the ENTIRE BATHROOM for however long it takes her to feed her baby? Get a grip!

OMG! Somebody... changed their baby's diaper in the bathroom! I didn't go there to be exposed to bodily functions!

And what do you think the bathroom is for? Yes, changing the diaper at the table is icky. Changing it in the bathroom is practical and normal.

NOOO! I went to see a kid's movie... afterschool... and there were... CHILDREN there!

*headdesk*

Now, in fairness, a lot of those people, whatever they say, seem to care a great deal about kids... there's a number of posts on the subject of "parents shouldn't do that sort of fucked up shit to their kids", with the fucked up shit in question ranging from not feeding them right to murder. And it's certainly a rant community more than anything else, I'm not denying that we all need a place to vent. But... *giggles* Sometimes certain comments are over the top.

Comments

[ril-chan.livejournal.com]

childfree, right?

I assume so because I've seen them on LJ Drama (http://ljdrama.org) for that last one you mentioned. ::snerks::

[conuly]

Oh yeah. I read the posts, but I wouldn't join, nor would I watch it. I go with less vitriolic groups, thank you very much.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

LJDrama really has it in for that community, and most of the members are ignorant boobs (on both sides of this-- I just dislike LJD for their hatred of women, gays, furries, the childfree... etc. That's a rant for later). You can't take much stock in what they say. The groupthink on that site is nothing if not Orwellian.

I think this rant may have been started by me. I gave up hope on that community after posting a thread about a teacher who told her first grade class there is no Santa. The general response? "It's wrong to tell kids Santa is real! Good for the teacher!" I was... oh god I was blown clear out of the water. Definitely time to leave. And I was holding out hope for so long.

Anyway, Uly:

I can kind of understand the breastfeeding one... 'cept my solution is a blanket because the bathroom is just unsanitary. Frankly, if I can't whip my tits out neither can they! Either it's a sexual object or not. That's all I'm saying.

What, no comment on the "Oh my god, there was a child and it LOOKED at me! They're not allowed to look at me!" type posts? I really wish they'd make a childhaters community again, so all those loonies would go back to it and leave childfree in peace.

[conuly]

I can kind of understand the breastfeeding one... 'cept my solution is a blanket because the bathroom is just unsanitary. Frankly, if I can't whip my tits out neither can they! Either it's a sexual object or not. That's all I'm saying.

Most people do that, in fact. Now, I agree, if you're going all obvious about it, that's too much, but most people cover it up. And, in fact, in many places, it is technically legal for women to be topless (because men can be, of course).

What, no comment on the "Oh my god, there was a child and it LOOKED at me! They're not allowed to look at me!" type posts?

Those are obviously ridiculous. I don't have any compunction to argue with the absurd.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

I know most people use towels. The one rant I remember was the BK woman that had her naked breast out. I have nothing wrong with breasts, but dammit-- I dislike that kind of double standard. A boob is a boob and its serves the same function no matter what ulterior motive you give it. It's a mammary gland wrapped in adipose tissues.

Ridiculous, maybe. But they ruin my credibility as a childfreer. ::mutter.::

[gingembre.livejournal.com]

Actually, she did *not* "have her naked breast out" at BK. There is footage from an interview where she demonstrated her technique that I can point you towards if you're interested.

I have found through much practice that the *best* way is to have a shirt you can lift up slightly. After that, the baby's head and body covers everything. Most women also turn slightly into a corner, especially when latching on the baby. Using a blanket only draws attention - similar to putting a "breastfeeding here!" sign up. And for the record, most people I've encountered have been completely unaware that I was feeding the baby at all, they thought she was sleeping or just that I was cuddling her, and they were there from latch-on to finish.

On a further side note, the base problem here is that our culture sexualizes something that isn't meant to be sexualized. Many cultures have women going topless also with no thought to it being "indecent". And although quite a few people have foot fetishes, no one suggests that we not show our feet for the sake of modesty (at least not in this century!) Breasts are not meant to be sex toys, in fact almost no other species uses them as such. They are also not meant to sell beer and cars :-)

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

That's all I'd heard about the BK woman. What I get for listening to word on the street. Like I've said, I really have no problem with breastfeeding... and I wouldn't go topless, because I'm one of those unfortunate souls that needs a bra.

And I agree wholeheartedly on the beer or cars bit. Just because men don't have them....

[goddess588.livejournal.com]

Covering it up encourages people to think that it's not acceptable.

[conuly]

I'm sure my sister would agree :)

But honestly, I'd cover up simply because it's easier. If people get offended over something that's so easy to compromise on, I'll go compromising.

[goddess588.livejournal.com]

Fair enough. I'm glad that I didn't feel that I had to, though I probably wouldn't have. I'm not sure - I guess it depends on society and mine seems far more liberal than yours.

[goddess588.livejournal.com]

I'm going to kill someone ...

Breastfeeding is fucking normal! And in NZ most people do it in public without any shame at all. I really think I have to stop reading my childfree friends' friends lists. I have never in all my life found a community that I hate as much as childfree.

[conuly]

Well, my sister has a very good point about that (which, incidentally, coincides with a point somebody in that community made, though they were approaching it from radically different angles).

Jenn wants to campaign to de-sexualize the breast. She says that people find the concept of breast feeding icky (like the woman who posted on childfree all upset that the la leche league was collecting breast milk in her area... *rolls her eyes*) because they think of the breast as a SEXUAL object, not a functional one. In NYC it's legal for a woman to go topless, but it's far from acceptable, for example.

This coincides with a woman in childfree whose plan to bring fairness to breastfeeding was to let her boyfriend suck on her chest next time somebody started breastfeeding near her.

I'm still not sure why they're all 1. so grossed out or 2. apparently, judging from ACTUAL COMMENTS (not just my surmising) turning around and then being shocked at what they see.

[fjorab-teke.livejournal.com]

Yep...I'm there too, and I suspect you may occasionally still meander over there through my friends list. *heehee* Usually, if I don't agree with something but it doesn't disgust me enough to post a rant on THEM, I just leave it and move on. There have been times when my own "kid threshold" has been so over-saturated that my tolerance for ANYTHING child-related makes me ranty and obnoxious and thus irrational.

I'm not nearly as child-friendly as most people, but I'm much more so than some people in there (although I'm a firm supporter of myself as childfree). When the person complained about the kid in the bathroom, I basically said that it was good and proper that they do so THERE, but that I just hope I don't happen upon the scene as it happens. :-p It's far better than someone changing a baby's diaper on a restaurant table, for example, or not changing the poor kid at all, as some people have complained about coming across the situations. THAT is just...ughh.

[conuly]

*nods* Like the recent post about the parents who just talked about the dirty diaper and did nothing about it... that's messed up. Dirty diapers need changing. End of story. And I don't like to see them either, but they're better off changed in the bathroom (or, some places have special "baby changing rooms" rather than setting up the changing areas in both bathrooms) than not changed, or out in the open (though if there's nowhere else, baby has to be changed, end of story, don't walk 20 miles to find a bathroom).

[goddess588.livejournal.com]

Argh - don't get me started ...

Hey - I know the problem here! I'm not childfree.

[fjorab-teke.livejournal.com]

*heeheehee*

Nah, some people are just MUCH more tolerant of kids than a lot of us CF'ers are.

Like someone pointed out once, it's almost like a preference concerning cats or dogs or even other issues such as transportation. Some people like me just DON'T LIKE children (although I don't adamantly hate them or wish harm upon them), and others dearly adore them. I don't mind people who love babies, nor do I mind those who don't.

My patience and lack of fondness for babies makes me aware that I wouldn't be a suitable...or happy...parent. I'd much rather avoid the presence of babies while at the same time be happy for those who want kids and raise them respectfully...respectfully of their children as well as others in general. I feel greatly violated if I'm EXPECTED to want a child, am handed over a squirming toddler, or in a situation where I have to endure a badly-mannered brat. Quiet, well-behaved children who have been brought up with a sense of mutual respect with their parents are nice company, but even with them I have a certain degree of discomfort.

[fjorab-teke.livejournal.com]

*bah*...my LACK of patience, that should be in the first sentence.

Anyway, there are many aspects connected with children I don't like, while others love babies enough to endure them. A screaming infant hurts my ears and gives me headaches, while I understand they need something and are thus crying. The thought of pregnancy and chilbirth give me a major case of heebiejeebies, etc.

But on the other hand, I'm very disgusted at times with people who raise kids without rational thought and don't generally consider their kids' welfare and/or their behavior in public (these strange people are known to us as "breeders" as opposed to responsible parents).

[conuly]

Well of course *winks* you'd love seth and ana. And as you'll never see them, there's no chance for you to ever prove me wrong.

Seriously, and not being the silly that I was just now being, I don't get those who say it's somehow selfish not to want kids. WTF? It's selfish to want kids you can't take care of! Or to want kids just to have them, not because you really think it's best. Wow. I'm fitting multiple rants into one post. And setting myself up to get flamed for offering to shove the "twins" on you... not that I would. I see those babies, and they're all MINE.

[fjorab-teke.livejournal.com]

*LOL* I love you, Connie, you're funny.

Nah, I don't oogle and coo over babies like most women do. I guess my maternal instinct was left out of my DNA coding. ;-) But I'm happy you've got sweet babies to appreciate. It sounds like you care for the kiddies, and that's a great thing for all concerned. :-)

But yeah, I guess they either think we're "keeping some child from experiencing a life" or that we may indeed be selfish enough to want to live our lives without caring for a child (who we couldn't care for properly anyway). *shrugs*

[conuly]

I don't coo over most babies either. Just mine. And the kittens, of course. I love kittens. *grins* I know more about cats and kittens than anyone I know, and the vast majority of it I learned from pure observation.

[ril-chan.livejournal.com]

childfree, right?

I assume so because I've seen them on LJ Drama (http://ljdrama.org) for that last one you mentioned. ::snerks::

[conuly]

Oh yeah. I read the posts, but I wouldn't join, nor would I watch it. I go with less vitriolic groups, thank you very much.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

LJDrama really has it in for that community, and most of the members are ignorant boobs (on both sides of this-- I just dislike LJD for their hatred of women, gays, furries, the childfree... etc. That's a rant for later). You can't take much stock in what they say. The groupthink on that site is nothing if not Orwellian.

I think this rant may have been started by me. I gave up hope on that community after posting a thread about a teacher who told her first grade class there is no Santa. The general response? "It's wrong to tell kids Santa is real! Good for the teacher!" I was... oh god I was blown clear out of the water. Definitely time to leave. And I was holding out hope for so long.

Anyway, Uly:

I can kind of understand the breastfeeding one... 'cept my solution is a blanket because the bathroom is just unsanitary. Frankly, if I can't whip my tits out neither can they! Either it's a sexual object or not. That's all I'm saying.

What, no comment on the "Oh my god, there was a child and it LOOKED at me! They're not allowed to look at me!" type posts? I really wish they'd make a childhaters community again, so all those loonies would go back to it and leave childfree in peace.

[conuly]

I can kind of understand the breastfeeding one... 'cept my solution is a blanket because the bathroom is just unsanitary. Frankly, if I can't whip my tits out neither can they! Either it's a sexual object or not. That's all I'm saying.

Most people do that, in fact. Now, I agree, if you're going all obvious about it, that's too much, but most people cover it up. And, in fact, in many places, it is technically legal for women to be topless (because men can be, of course).

What, no comment on the "Oh my god, there was a child and it LOOKED at me! They're not allowed to look at me!" type posts?

Those are obviously ridiculous. I don't have any compunction to argue with the absurd.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

I know most people use towels. The one rant I remember was the BK woman that had her naked breast out. I have nothing wrong with breasts, but dammit-- I dislike that kind of double standard. A boob is a boob and its serves the same function no matter what ulterior motive you give it. It's a mammary gland wrapped in adipose tissues.

Ridiculous, maybe. But they ruin my credibility as a childfreer. ::mutter.::

[gingembre.livejournal.com]

Actually, she did *not* "have her naked breast out" at BK. There is footage from an interview where she demonstrated her technique that I can point you towards if you're interested.

I have found through much practice that the *best* way is to have a shirt you can lift up slightly. After that, the baby's head and body covers everything. Most women also turn slightly into a corner, especially when latching on the baby. Using a blanket only draws attention - similar to putting a "breastfeeding here!" sign up. And for the record, most people I've encountered have been completely unaware that I was feeding the baby at all, they thought she was sleeping or just that I was cuddling her, and they were there from latch-on to finish.

On a further side note, the base problem here is that our culture sexualizes something that isn't meant to be sexualized. Many cultures have women going topless also with no thought to it being "indecent". And although quite a few people have foot fetishes, no one suggests that we not show our feet for the sake of modesty (at least not in this century!) Breasts are not meant to be sex toys, in fact almost no other species uses them as such. They are also not meant to sell beer and cars :-)

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

That's all I'd heard about the BK woman. What I get for listening to word on the street. Like I've said, I really have no problem with breastfeeding... and I wouldn't go topless, because I'm one of those unfortunate souls that needs a bra.

And I agree wholeheartedly on the beer or cars bit. Just because men don't have them....

[goddess588.livejournal.com]

Covering it up encourages people to think that it's not acceptable.

[conuly]

I'm sure my sister would agree :)

But honestly, I'd cover up simply because it's easier. If people get offended over something that's so easy to compromise on, I'll go compromising.

[goddess588.livejournal.com]

Fair enough. I'm glad that I didn't feel that I had to, though I probably wouldn't have. I'm not sure - I guess it depends on society and mine seems far more liberal than yours.

[goddess588.livejournal.com]

I'm going to kill someone ...

Breastfeeding is fucking normal! And in NZ most people do it in public without any shame at all. I really think I have to stop reading my childfree friends' friends lists. I have never in all my life found a community that I hate as much as childfree.

[conuly]

Well, my sister has a very good point about that (which, incidentally, coincides with a point somebody in that community made, though they were approaching it from radically different angles).

Jenn wants to campaign to de-sexualize the breast. She says that people find the concept of breast feeding icky (like the woman who posted on childfree all upset that the la leche league was collecting breast milk in her area... *rolls her eyes*) because they think of the breast as a SEXUAL object, not a functional one. In NYC it's legal for a woman to go topless, but it's far from acceptable, for example.

This coincides with a woman in childfree whose plan to bring fairness to breastfeeding was to let her boyfriend suck on her chest next time somebody started breastfeeding near her.

I'm still not sure why they're all 1. so grossed out or 2. apparently, judging from ACTUAL COMMENTS (not just my surmising) turning around and then being shocked at what they see.

[fjorab-teke.livejournal.com]

Yep...I'm there too, and I suspect you may occasionally still meander over there through my friends list. *heehee* Usually, if I don't agree with something but it doesn't disgust me enough to post a rant on THEM, I just leave it and move on. There have been times when my own "kid threshold" has been so over-saturated that my tolerance for ANYTHING child-related makes me ranty and obnoxious and thus irrational.

I'm not nearly as child-friendly as most people, but I'm much more so than some people in there (although I'm a firm supporter of myself as childfree). When the person complained about the kid in the bathroom, I basically said that it was good and proper that they do so THERE, but that I just hope I don't happen upon the scene as it happens. :-p It's far better than someone changing a baby's diaper on a restaurant table, for example, or not changing the poor kid at all, as some people have complained about coming across the situations. THAT is just...ughh.

[conuly]

*nods* Like the recent post about the parents who just talked about the dirty diaper and did nothing about it... that's messed up. Dirty diapers need changing. End of story. And I don't like to see them either, but they're better off changed in the bathroom (or, some places have special "baby changing rooms" rather than setting up the changing areas in both bathrooms) than not changed, or out in the open (though if there's nowhere else, baby has to be changed, end of story, don't walk 20 miles to find a bathroom).

[goddess588.livejournal.com]

Argh - don't get me started ...

Hey - I know the problem here! I'm not childfree.

[fjorab-teke.livejournal.com]

*heeheehee*

Nah, some people are just MUCH more tolerant of kids than a lot of us CF'ers are.

Like someone pointed out once, it's almost like a preference concerning cats or dogs or even other issues such as transportation. Some people like me just DON'T LIKE children (although I don't adamantly hate them or wish harm upon them), and others dearly adore them. I don't mind people who love babies, nor do I mind those who don't.

My patience and lack of fondness for babies makes me aware that I wouldn't be a suitable...or happy...parent. I'd much rather avoid the presence of babies while at the same time be happy for those who want kids and raise them respectfully...respectfully of their children as well as others in general. I feel greatly violated if I'm EXPECTED to want a child, am handed over a squirming toddler, or in a situation where I have to endure a badly-mannered brat. Quiet, well-behaved children who have been brought up with a sense of mutual respect with their parents are nice company, but even with them I have a certain degree of discomfort.

[fjorab-teke.livejournal.com]

*bah*...my LACK of patience, that should be in the first sentence.

Anyway, there are many aspects connected with children I don't like, while others love babies enough to endure them. A screaming infant hurts my ears and gives me headaches, while I understand they need something and are thus crying. The thought of pregnancy and chilbirth give me a major case of heebiejeebies, etc.

But on the other hand, I'm very disgusted at times with people who raise kids without rational thought and don't generally consider their kids' welfare and/or their behavior in public (these strange people are known to us as "breeders" as opposed to responsible parents).

[conuly]

Well of course *winks* you'd love seth and ana. And as you'll never see them, there's no chance for you to ever prove me wrong.

Seriously, and not being the silly that I was just now being, I don't get those who say it's somehow selfish not to want kids. WTF? It's selfish to want kids you can't take care of! Or to want kids just to have them, not because you really think it's best. Wow. I'm fitting multiple rants into one post. And setting myself up to get flamed for offering to shove the "twins" on you... not that I would. I see those babies, and they're all MINE.

[fjorab-teke.livejournal.com]

*LOL* I love you, Connie, you're funny.

Nah, I don't oogle and coo over babies like most women do. I guess my maternal instinct was left out of my DNA coding. ;-) But I'm happy you've got sweet babies to appreciate. It sounds like you care for the kiddies, and that's a great thing for all concerned. :-)

But yeah, I guess they either think we're "keeping some child from experiencing a life" or that we may indeed be selfish enough to want to live our lives without caring for a child (who we couldn't care for properly anyway). *shrugs*

[conuly]

I don't coo over most babies either. Just mine. And the kittens, of course. I love kittens. *grins* I know more about cats and kittens than anyone I know, and the vast majority of it I learned from pure observation.