conuly | A handful of writing complaints

Which I would not, of course, provide unsolicited to the people who did them.

1. I recently was happily reading when I realized that the author had managed to write an entire dialogue heavy scene in which every person started their words with "Oh". They weren't doing a thing, they just didn't glance over their work after running spellcheck. I actually was tempted to provide some unsolicited advice and that's why I'm posting, in the hopes that this cures me.

2. If your protagonist's culture does not have literal radar, your protagonist does not have figurative radar. Likewise, no space race or military radio jargon = nobody says "Earth to $Name!" That latter has come up too many times in the past few weeks and I do not know why I've suddenly run into it so often.

3. With that said, lazy word swaps are lazy, and often unnecessary. If they have cats, there is no need to ask if the sphinx has got your tongue. Cats are right there!

4. Prophecies are stupid and so are most people's attempts at riddles. I've hardly ever read a story with a prophecy and said "Wow, that prophecy was necessary and really added a lot to this story", and I blame the Greeks for this precedent. But at least the Greeks didn't feel the need to make their riddles thematically appropriate, and you know, that doesn't make the riddles more clever. Tolkien is the riddling exception, but that's because he was vastly over-educated.

5. As always, please remember that potatoes, tomatoes, and peppers are New World crops. Yes, that means that there were no potatoes in 12th century European stews, curries, or Ireland, and all the kimchi was just cabbage.

6. There are still no alleys in NYC. I mean, there are some, but not enough to justify including them in your story.

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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

nancylebov

_Gerfalcon_, _Joris of the Rock_, and _Shy Leopardess_ by Leslie Barringer is a fantasy trilogy that makes good use of prophecy.

From:

conuly

There's gotta be an exception one of these days, but - and bear with me here - is the prophecy either a. the sort that only comes true because the right person heard it and acted on it (probably in the worst possible way) or b. the sort that came true because it could not have been averted and it may as well have been uttered by somebody under a rock on Mars for all the good it did?

From:

nancylebov

I don't remember the books well enough to answer your questions, but I liked that, after going through a lot of taking the prophecy seriously, it turns out to be so vague it could apply as well to a very different situation.

From:

conuly

Oh, one of those.

From:

full_metal_ox

Have you read Scarlet Sails, by Alexander Grin? If so, what are your thoughts on the handling of its prophecy?

From:

conuly

I have not, but my thoughts will probably not be terribly complimentary if/when I do. I'm really jaded on the entire subject.

From:

sabotabby

There are no alleys in NYC???

I always wonder where to draw lines; if it's fantasy, it's being translated from whatever language to English, etc. But certain things (and radar would be one!) will absolutely draw me out of the story.

From:

conuly

There are very very few alleys in NYC, especially in Manhattan and very especially in Manhattan once you hit the numbered streets. And the ones that we do have are very often gated and locked at one or both ends. When they designed the street grid, they just didn't account for them, I don't know why. And so we don't have them.

But for some reason people just keep writing alleys in the city.

Edited Date: 2024-12-29 01:41 pm (UTC)

From:

redbird

I think there's room for mention of one of those real-world alleys, e.g. if having someone head south on Cortland Alley, though Wikipedia tells me that one is badly overused by film crews. That article also says that all those TV shows, music videos, and so on may be why a lot of people think there are numerous alleys in the city.

Also, name aside, when someone mentions an "alley" I don't think of a three-block long street wide enough for loading docks, I think of something like the narrow passageways around Harvard Square, used by pedestrians and probably the occasional bicycle-rider.

Boston has more alleys, some of them with names like "Public Alley 444," meaning that they're owned and maintained by the city (not by the owners of the adjoining buildings).

From:

conuly

I think of something like the narrow passageways around Harvard Square, used by pedestrians and probably the occasional bicycle-rider.

Yeah, we don’t have those.

From:

minoanmiss

I feel a bit bad now for promulgating this falsehood in my MCU fic. I found the Fictional Sex Alleys of NYC an entertaining concept.

From:

conuly

Well, MCU NYC must go a lot of dramatic urban renewal on a frequent basis.

From:

agoodwinsmith

I suspect it is because Vancouver BC is a stand-in for "New York" and New York-adjacent American cities in many films and TV shows, and Vancouver BC has alleys galore. A lot of filming takes place in our picturesque alleys. Someone taking their information from B movies and TV will believe that alleys must exist everywhere because, look, there they are.

From:

conuly

I'm pretty sure this lovefest for NYC alleys predates Vancouver being the stand-in. Are there lots of dismal alleys in LA?

From:

topaz_eyes

For myself, I wish readers were more willing to leave unsolicited concrit in comments. Especially when it comes to easily fixable typos and other errors. Then maybe I wouldn't leave up a fic for 5 years before I realize I repeated an entire sentence one paragraph later. Or (like yesterday lol), leave up a fic for 18 months before I realize I left out a couple of really important words. I'm not precious about my work. My posts aren't engraved in stone, they're on platforms that allow endless edits.

(Huh, TIL that there are almost no alleys in NYC. My little city has them, at least in the older areas laid out in grids. They're wide enough for one vehicle, so we have off-street garbage collection and deer paths.)

From:

conuly

For myself, I wish readers were more willing to leave unsolicited concrit in comments.

I think you have to say it in an author's note to be sure it'll happen.

And honestly, sometimes I do say something, but only when I think I can phrase it the right way. It's tricky.

From:

topaz_eyes

I have "concrit is appreciated" statements on several fics. No one seems to want to leave any though.

I do think the insistence on "positive feedback only!" in recent years is one cause of the overall decline in comment culture tbh. I've received several comments on pre-AO3 fics from LJ/DW that mention typos or other errors. Those comments almost always included lovely compliments too, so the comments never felt critical to me. More importantly, I felt the concrit often opened conversation about my fic.

Concrit is tricky, but I found the sandwich format effective back in the day. (Unless the errors are unfixable and/or egregious. Then I explain, eg why they really shouldn't use certain tropes for some characters, and hope the author realizes they screwed up.)

From:

conuly

The thing about the sandwich format is that...

Listen, I had that used against me so much as a kid, and now, in my 40s, I still can hardly stand to hear a compliment because I'm waiting for the attack. I'm sure all my teachers and guidance counselors thought they were doing just great, but a shit sandwich is still shit, and covering your criticism with vague compliments does not ipso facto make it constructive. I've been told that my reflexive reaction is not all that uncommon with people who were the subject of this method's overuse. It makes it hard to deal with genuine compliments and genuinely constructive criticism.

So, not something I'm likely to do myself.

Edited Date: 2024-12-30 02:46 am (UTC)

From:

minoanmiss

Mrmn.

Maybe it's just that SO MUCH of the so-called concrit I've gotten has been along the lines of "people are too jealous for this to be realistic" on clearly labeled threesome fics, "A/B is the One True Pairing" on clearly labeled A/C fics, and best of all, "I HATE Female Canon Love Interest SO SO MUCH" on an A/FCLI, A/B story that explores bisexuality... plus, what conuly said about the Sandwich Method. I find these days I may get fewer comments but I appreciate a higher proportion of them.

From:

topaz_eyes

Yeah, but that's not constructive criticism, is it. That's just plain old criticism that misses the point.

My experience with truly constructive criticism is that it's offered in good faith to help objectively improve a story. Like pointing out obvious errors that throw a reader out: eg spelling a canon character's name incorrectly, wrong canon details, not formatting dialogue tags correctly, reformatting walls of text into paragraphs; or pointing out unconscious racism, sexism, misogyny, homophobia or transphobia in the narrative.

I have limited time and focus for reading. Once I'm thrown out of a story, the clock starts ticking. If it happens too often I hit that back button. Even if I adored the story otherwise; even if I would have left a glowing comment otherwise; the author gets silence.

And silence is feedback. After enough silence writers will start to wonder why they're getting hits but nothing else. Especially those who insist on "positive feedback only." If I can't finish a fic because it's frankly unreadable, and the writer doesn't want any critical comments that could help, that's up to them to deal.

Look, no one wants to be told they're doing something wrong. Except how can a writer fix things in their work if they don't know what's wrong, because they won't allow anyone to tell them? Sure, point about the sandwich method--but shouldn't authors also be informed when they are doing something objectively well? (Not just vague compliments either, those aren't constructive. To be constructive, imho it needs to be specific.)

From:

minoanmiss

"Good faith" is such a pivotal, load-bearing concept.

Except how can a writer fix things in their work if they don't know what's wrong, because they won't allow anyone to tell them?

Not infrequently, especially if I have enough time to review, I find a lot of errors by rereading my own work. Also, all of the examples I gave above were defended as constructive criticism of what the reader considered an error in my story and I considered the point of the story. Determining who's objectively right would be an interesting if time consuming exercise.

Sure, point about the sandwich method--but shouldn't authors also be informed when they are doing something objectively well?

I think people who ask for "no concrit" still want to hear about what they did right, and I personally love telling people what I think they did right in specific detail, when I have the time. Also, I have found being told what I did right a lot more useful in the long run than being told what people thought I did wrong.

As for pointing out when people weave bigotries into their stories... I have generally found that people don't respond well to public comments on finished stories along those lines. I have a couple of stories I could tell but first I'd have to find out how you feel about Tony Stark. laughs ruefully

From:

topaz_eyes

I frequently re-read my own work, that's how I find my errors. Many of which would have been fixed years ago, if someone had only said, "Hey, you repeated this sentence twice in two paragraphs," or "Hey, you left out this word," or "Hey, did you mean to say this point in this problematic way?" And my reaction would be "Great, thank you so much for letting me know!" Because I can't catch everything, and imho fixing them makes my story better. But YMMV.

all of the examples I gave above were defended as constructive criticism of what the reader considered an error in my story and I considered the point of the story.

When an author states clearly a fic is about A/C and/or explores said points, it is bad faith to criticize it for not being [insert commenter's headcanon here]. Absolutely, good faith is a pivotal concept.

I think people who ask for "no concrit" still want to hear about what they did right

I try to avoid fics that say "no concrit" tbh.

I have generally found that people don't respond well to public comments on finished stories along those lines.

I have no opinion on Tony Stark, because I'm not and never have been in Marvel fandom. But oh yes, I believe when you say authors don't respond well when you point out their use of bigoted tropes.

From:

conuly

minoanmiss references thought they were being constructive. They weren't, because they were dicks, but.

Sure, point about the sandwich method--but shouldn't authors also be informed when they are doing something objectively well? (Not just vague compliments either, those aren't constructive. To be constructive, imho it needs to be specific.)

Yeah, well, that's the other reason I myself don't leave much feedback on people's work. It's a lot easier for me to catalog everything done wrong than name a single thing done right - and the more I like something, the worse the problem is! "Don't mind me, my love language is brutally ripping you apart!"

From:

topaz_eyes

The thing is, sometimes you offer criticism in good faith, and it's something super trivial and simple and even *urgent* (like "Wow, your formatting error makes your post impossible to read" or "You accidentally posted the same paragraph ten times in a row") and people will just not take it that way, I don't know why.

That's because most people take criticism of their work as a direct personal criticism of them. No one is taught how to separate the work from the person unless they're in a position or field where their work is criticized as a matter of course. (Professional writers, graduate students, or scientists come to mind.) Anecdotally, I wouldn't be writing fic now if a reader hadn't commented on my first posted fics to say "hey, your work has promise, but it can be a lot better." I didn't want my errors pointed out, because no one wants to admit they make mistakes. I learned to accept it though, because once I got over myself I realized yeah, most of my mistakes needed fixing.

Yeah, well, that's the other reason I myself don't leave much feedback on people's work. It's a lot easier for me to catalog everything done wrong than name a single thing done right - and the more I like something, the worse the problem is!

Yeah. I've learned to gloss over minor errors these days. Because, while I try very hard to catch my errors before I post, something always slips through. I've also learned to avoid reading works with certain tags or author's notes.

From:

james

I agree with your complaints, and laughed at "still no alleys" as if they've been considering putting some in and just haven't gotten to it yet.

"All the kimchi was just cabbage" sounds like some wise saying or poetic song lyrics (possibly by The Carpenters. All the leaves are brown and the kimchi is cabbage...").

From:

full_metal_ox

And today I learned that the Carpenters covered “California Dreamin’”. (I grew up with the version by The Mamas And The Papas, aka The Show That Didn’t Start Till The Fat Lady Sang.)

From:

james

Way back in the day, I heard the Carpenters version first, so I always forget who covered whom. :-D

From:

conuly

I mean, I guess the kimchi also had salt? Salt and cabbage? I don't really know what all goes into kimchi besides salt and cabbage and (optionally) peppers. And maybe shellfish of some sort?