I just read a fic where a character who canonically speaks SAE

[conuly]

suddenly comes out with the "needs washed" construction.

As always, I find it totally fascinating how people with this construction in their dialect have no idea that it isn't universal. It isn't universal, guys, it is very much regional. As far as I know, it comes from one specific place in the British Isles and is found only in parts of the Anglosphere heavily settled by people from that place.

And for some reason, people who otherwise knows that all sorts of regionalisms in their speech are regionalisms are totally baffled when you tell them that this is one of them. They suggest there's no other way to say things without that construction. They are confused when you point out that every television show they've ever watched and every book they've ever read has dozens of examples of people saying the same thing, but in Standard English - the dog needs to be washed, the book needs to be put away, and so on.

I didn't say anything to this author, but I'm watching the comments in case somebody else does. I usually find linguistic diversity interesting on its own, but when it comes to this particular construction I find the fact that the speakers who have it have no idea to be much more fascinating.

Comments

[musyc]

... *silently mouths: the dishes need washed, the car needs moved, the floor needs swept*

So, upon pondering, yeah, that's common in my dialect. I would probably not put it in dialogue for characters? But now I wonder if I ever have and not realized it.

[conuly]

It's certainly appropriate to put it in dialog if they speak your dialect (or the related one you guys got this feature from), of course. I don't want to suggest otherwise!

But this particular character... I'd have to look through her speech, but I'm pretty sure she doesn't have that dialect feature. I often do notice this particular one when it comes up because I just find it so interesting!

[musyc]

Oh, yeah, if the character were from an area like mine or similar enough, it would totally be appropriate! Wouldn't even blink, then. The characters on Justified, absolutely. The Gilmore Girls, definitely not. XD

[agoodwinsmith]

What about "needs washing" or "needs eating up", or similar. We use that collapsed construction but only with the "ing" tense.

[fox]

That is entirely standard alongside "needs to be [ ]ed." Either the infinitive or the gerund (which is really a noun) can be the object of "need(s)" - the construction that uses an inflected form of the verb is the marked one.

[conuly]

Different construction, also found in Standard English, though I feel - at least in my speech - that it's a bit "marked".

[topaz_eyes]

I've been called out for using regionalisms in fic before (the positive anymore is a big one), and for me it happens simply because it's unconscious. "Needs washed" is a perfectly normal construction both where I grew up and where I currently live. As is "go to hospital" instead of "go to the hospital." You're right, it's utterly fascinating.

[conuly]

You have positive anymore, needs washed - and go to hospital?

[topaz_eyes]

The rural southwestern Ontario dialect (and accent) is wild. That area was settled by waves of Scots and Irish immigrants from the early 18th century up to World War 2, as well as US Loyalists after the American Revolution. Plus, the area was extremely isolated from the rest of southern Ontario. It's also sometimes known as "Queen's Bush" English (referring to Queen Victoria).

If you've ever watched "Letterkenny", that's the dialect and accent you hear.

[conuly]

Well now I know!

[james]

This reminds me of how annoyed I get at the fanfic writers writing 9-1-1 fic and the writers are British (fans of Oliver Stark, who is British but plays an American on the show.) They don't make any effort to make their stories sound American -- where in narration or dialogue. And I shout at the clouds like an old lady, because in MY day, writing fic for The Professionals, we tried very hard to make sure our British characters sounded British! We had Britpickers! We would be ashamed to post a story that sounded like an American had written it!

And here are all these fanfic writers saying Buck was sat on the couch as the lorry drove by and I want to shout at them.

[conuly]

I seem to recall a lot of complaining, back in the day, of people who refused to Brit pick or use betas.

[cimorene]

Yeah, they were definitely there shortly after 2000. But the expectation to get fic brit picked or American picked was also common, though not universal!

I would go through a community or archive systematically back in the early 2000s and would find a lot of these mistakes, but also a lot of mentions of the -pickers in author notes, either to thank them or apologize for not getting one. So at least there was a large portion of the writing fandom aware of this expectation and affected by it at least far enough to apologize for its lack.

When I was reading Stranger Things last summer, in contrast - and it's also a heavily UK teenager fandom, not sure why - the body of discourse in author notes was much different. There were few mentions of betas or dialect pickers (though these were still present sometimes!) and a huge number references to posting right away, in the middle of the night or on their phones or whatever, to explain a lack of spellchecking and other hasty errors. A lot of people will note that they don't have time to proofread yet and will post anyway and promise to come back and do it soon, which is a new type of note I don't remember seeing very often at all in the 00s. And also there are a lot of unapologetic notices that they simply don't want to be bothered proofreading, or spellchecking, or getting anyone to beta or dialect pick... but I think this is also linked to the fact that younger and newer fans often seem to have trouble finding betas at all. Many of them don't have community interactions anywhere in any practical sense and get all their fannish stuff from Tumblr and AO3, which is not conducive to the kinds of community building you got on lj.

[okojosan]

I hear people dropping the "to be" all the time where I live (Washington state.) I didn't realize it was a Britishism, I think I've heard it only from Americans.

[conuly]

Well, there's more Americans than Brits. And I'm reasonably certain it's not a widespread Briticism, I've only heard of it coming from one part of Scotland, where it may or may not still be currant.

[lilysea]

As far as I know, it comes from one specific place in the British Isles and is found only in parts of the Anglosphere heavily settled by people from that place

Huh!

I thought it was either from the middle of the US

or possibly from the Southern US states...

It's not a thing here in Australia. It used to really set my teeth on edge, I had to work with becoming okay with it.

[steorra]

You're not far wrong with the idea of it being from the middle of the US. That may not be its origin, but there are significant parts where it's common. You can see a map here.

[cellio]

I grew up in the midst of this -- an old-enough arrival to have not picked it up personally (whew!) but surrounded by people who do it including a younger sibling. I had always thought it was an Appalachian thing until (the Internet was invented and) I looked it up and found out about the apparent Scottish origins. (I say "apparent" because at the time there were dissenters, and I haven't chased any of this down recently.)

[elisi]

*blinks* I don't think that I have ever come across this...

[conuly]

If you do, and you can figure out how to bring it up without the speaker thinking you're criticizing or god forbid correcting them, go ahead and do so - dollars to donuts they'll have just the reaction I describe, a sort of disbelieving and intense surprise that anybody at all thinks this is remarkable or nonstandard.

It has nothing to do with how well-educated they are, or anything else. In my experience lots of them can point to other things they and other people in the area say that's nonstandard and they know it, and not just the obvious things like "ain't" in casual, non-ironic usage. It's just this one thing.

[elisi]

Bit of a tangent, but here is something to make you laugh. ^_^

[chasing_silver]

Everyone in my part of the Midwest says it.

[conuly]

That's where you'd find it! And not much outside that area.

[jhetley]

I had thought that "needs washed" and associated uses originated in the Mennonite/Amish community spreading from my Pennsylvania "Dutch" ancestors speaking German.

[movingfinger]

In German that construction takes the helper verb!

[conuly]

I've been told it also appears or did appear in parts of Scotland which are overrepresented in producing settlers for that part of the Midwest. But I suppose it's not impossible there was some cross-pollination happening. (I say this as lay speculation, not because I know enough to say definitively!)

[movingfinger]

I don't mind the collapsed construction or other dialect, but when fic writers put it in the mouths of characters who are not associated with the region it throws me right out of the story and the plot has to be very compelling not to inspire me to close file and move on.

[conuly]

It's like me with potatoes, tomatoes, and peppers in medieval afroeurasia. Some things don't belong there.

[lizziey]

Listen, no one likes to conjugate To Be, so they decided Not To Be. :D

[conuly]

I love you, but you're dead to me. Dead to me. No more low-effort dad jokes! High effort jokes only.

Speaking of dads, how's the baby?

[lizziey]

I literally forgot this site for a year 😭 I’m sorry.

That baby, phew. Her and her mom came to live with us for six months while he got his crap together. He spiraled for while , got back on track, and they all live in Florida now. Seths married to Emily, and Topher lives with them too, since December. They live 9 minutes away from me and are here every day.

[conuly]

1. Pics?

2. Lost your number!

[lizziey]

I sent a message with my number!

[kareina]

Ok, what is SAE in that context? I asked google, but it insists that it means Society of Automotive Engineers, but from the rest of the post I don't think that is at all what you meant.

Also, regional till where? I have never heard "needs washed". I have heard both "needs washing" and "needs to be washed" many times, but never "needs washed". I have lived in Japan, Germany, Crete, Michigan (UP), Texas, Alaska, Oregon, California, Tasmania, British Columbia, Italy, and Sweden, so I guess that the dialect you are talking about must be somewhere other than those places...

[conuly]

Standard American English, regional to a section of the American Midwest. Widespread to the point of being near universal in the area where it's from, but pretty unheard of outside that area... much to the surprise of people from there!

[andrewducker]

Yes, this one got me when I moved to Scotland.

[conuly]

Got you and let you go, I see.

[andrewducker]

Sorry, it *bemused* me when I moved to Scotland.

[silmaril]

Is it linked to "needs eating up?"

[applenym]

Oh, how interesting! I've never heard that "needs washed" construction. If I'd seen it in a story, I'd have assumed it was a typo and the writer left out a couple words by accident.

I grew up near Chicago, IL, and did not realize till I was an adult that a particular construction we used is specific to certain parts of the Midwest. We'd say something like, "I'm going to the store. Do you want to come with?" Apparently people in other parts of the country think "come with" ought to have a word following it! I was really surprised to learn that.

[conuly]

My impression is that sentence final "come with" is increasing, especially among the younger population, but absolutely do not quote me on that one.