Since we're wrapping up Lower Decks I started watching DS9 with Jenn and Voyager with E

[conuly]

E heard my litany of complaints during the first episode of Voyager ("Don't get too excited, the two ships will integrate seamlessly", "you know, Voyager can hardly go three weeks without bumping into a random Romulan or Klingon or human, you'd think they'd run into some Cardassians now and again rather than having to simulate them on the holodeck", "Neelix is a terrible boyfriend and I'm not sure the writers understood that", "yeah, for all Tom's whining he'll show surprisingly little angst at how quickly he adapts", I kinda went on for a while with complaints of this nature) and asked "Wait, if you hate this show so much why are we watching it!?"

I don't hate Voyager. I actually like it a lot. This is not a hatewatch! It's just frustrating to compare what it is to what it should have been. And what it should have been and could have been is better.

But so it goes.

Speaking of Trek, if I wanted to watch a quickish highlights-only version of TOS and/or TNG, which episodes are must-sees and which are very much not?

Comments

[hudebnik]

We started watching DS9 recently, from the beginning, because we had both missed it when it was first on the air (I didn't have a TV at the time, and shalmestere had to work the evening it was on) and we've heard so many good things about it.

So far our favorite "fun" episode (which we saw out of order) is the one that time-travels to "Trouble with Tribbles". Our favorite "heavy" episode (which we also saw out of order) is the the one in which Sisko becomes a 1950's science fiction author, and it's not clear which one is dreaming the other. But shalmestere noticed that the author's name is on the children's book that Dr. Mbenga reads to his daughter in SNW....

[frandroid]

> the author's name is on the children's book that Dr. Mbenga reads to his daughter in SNW....

Whoa neat!!

The first two seasons of DS9 are really execrable. When I did a rewatch during the lockdowns, I ended up finding Quark to be the most interesting character. 18-year-old me had a crush on early Dax but 45-year-old me needs a bit more flesh on that character. Thankfully the character developed. :)

[conuly]

The first two seasons of DS9 are really execrable.

Oh, they're not that bad. They suffer in comparison to later seasons, though.

When I did a rewatch during the lockdowns, I ended up finding Quark to be the most interesting character

It really frustrates me that I find each main Ferengi character to be really compelling, but their group focus episodes too heavily weighted towards comic relief. (Also, I've never quite known how I feel about the way Ferengi, as a culture, are written.)

[gatheringrivers]

I've always been a fan of Judzia (sp?) - hard not to be :)

[conuly]

Jadzia. Which I think is also a Polish (?) name but they pronounce it differently (??).

Edit: Google confirms it, it's a variation of Hedwig. Which, as we all know, is not pronounced "head wig".

[jo]

For me, most of TOS is close to unwatchable, with the exceptions of:

Mirror, Mirror (s02e04) -- introduced the Mirror Universe, which comes up in both DS9 and Discovery
The Trouble with Tribbles (s2e15) -- Tribbles!! Also then you better appreciate the DS9 tribute episode
The City on the Edge of Forever (s01e28) (because people yell at you if you don't include this one on the list -- but it does introduce the portal thing)
Space Seed (s01e22) -- provides the backstory for Star Trek II: Wrath of Khan, and also becomes the major plot point in Enterprise that provides an explanation for why the Klingons in TOS (and Discovery) look so different

TNG is more complicated because it doesn't have one single, really outstanding season. Every season had some really good episodes, some really bad ones, and some meh ones. Season 1 is largely forgettable, IMO, and season 2 was impacted by a writers' strike, I think? The list of episodes to avoid for me would be too long, but in terms of highlight episodes, I'd definitely recommend (in no particularly order):

Measure of a Man (s2e9)
Q Who (s2e16) -- because it introduces the Borg
The Best of Both Worlds parts 1&2 (s3e26 and s4e01)
Yesterday's Enterprise (s3e15)
The Offspring (s3e14)
Chain of Command parts 1&2 (s6e1&2)
Reunion (s4e7)
The Next Phase (s5e24)
Unification parts 1&2 (s5e7&8)
Timescape (s6e25)
I, Borg (s5e23)
Parallels (s7e11)
Cause and Effect (s5e18)
Rascals (s6e7)

I personally always liked all of the eps dealing with internal Klingon power struggles, but I get that isn't to everyone's taste, so left those ones off the list. But the dude who played Gowron was great in that role.

[frandroid]

> provides an explanation

Okay but that's just silly retcon. :P

[jo]

No idea what that means, sorry.

[conuly]

Retcon defined at Wikipedia

Retcon defined at TVTropes

The Klingons look different in those two series because when TOS was produced they didn't have the budget to make them look like they do in the TNG era. Roddenberry's explanation was "Just pretend they always looked that way because they always were supposed to look that way".

This whole storyline "explaining" the difference is a retroactive change to the continuity of the show.

[topaz_eyes]

Adding to jo's TOS must-watch list (most of these are also imho genuinely good episodes, that also introduce key players and themes):

Where No Man Has Gone Before (s1e4) is the 2nd, and successful, ST pilot.
The Menagerie (s1e11-12) introduces Cpt Pike's story and is the basis for Star Trek: SNW. It incorporates the first (failed) ST pilot "The Cage."
Balance of Terror (s1e14) introduces the Romulans.
Errand of Mercy (s1e26) introduces the Klingons.
Amok Time (s2e1) launched Kirk/Spock.
The Changeling (s2e3) where Kirk has to figure out how to destroy NOMAD, a damaged space probe that has mistaken Kirk for its creator.
Journey to Babel (s2e10) introduces Sarek and Amanda.

Episodes to avoid: pretty much all of s3. It's... not great. More memorable for the episode titles than the content.

It's been a long while since I last watched TNG, but one episode to avoid is The Child (s2e1). It introduces Dr Pulaski, and Riker grows the beard; but then it's the Deanna-gets-nonconsensually-pregnant episode.

Edit to add: recommending The Inner Light (s5e25) for TNG. Picard lives an entire other life.

[jo]

I debated including Arena for the TOS list only because it introduces the Gorn and the link to Strange New Worlds, but I just can't because of that overgrown lizard suit...

[topaz_eyes]

I debated including Arena too, but left it out for pretty much the same reason. The TOS Gorn and SNW Gorn are too divergent for me to believe they're the same species.

[kengr]

For TOS, avoid "...And the Children Shall Lead" at all costs.

For example, it's got Melvin Belli (yes, the attorney) in a key role. *shudder*

[movingfinger]

Oh, for the age of television when a full run of epsidoes meant 26 or even more!

One way to winnow would be to look for episodes written by experienced SF writers (Sturgeon, Bloch, Ellison, Matheson, etc.). It's a great pity that Leigh Brackett never wrote for Star Trek---she was certainly working at the time. Maybe they couldn't afford her, or Roddenberry wouldn't hire her for some reason. Anyway. A few Star Trek recommendations, made with an eye forward:


Balance of Terror, S1 #8 Introduces the Romulan Empire.

The Squire of Gothos, S1 #18 This makes NOBODY's best-of list, I think, but if you're going to go on to watch TNG...

Arena, S1 #19 Don't start with this one; nonetheless, it's iconic, loaded with tropes, and feels very pulp-sf.

Space Seed, S1 #24

The Devil in the Dark, S1 #26

The City on the Edge of Forever, S1 #28

Mirror, Mirror, S2 #4

Amok Time, S2 #5

Journey to Babel, S2 #10

The Trouble with Tribbles, S2 #13

The Tholian Web, S3 #9

Day of the Dove, S3 #11 One of the many aliens-messing-with-us scripts, but with Klingons

All Our Yesterdays, S3 #23

[conuly]

Oh, for the age of television when a full run of epsidoes meant 26 or even more!

There certainly are pros and cons to longer seasons!

And you know what? There's pros and cons to commercial breaks too. For better or for worse, having to write around scheduled commercials does seem to force writers into a clear structure. I've found that some shows written for ad-free streaming really could benefit from that, especially if the writers are also allowed to flirt with longer-than-standard episodes.

[calimac]

"City on the Edge" and "Amok Time" both really suck the big one, as I found when I rewatched them recently. And they're both by experienced SF writers. On the other hand, "The Doomsday Machine" (not on your list) is really excellent and is also by an experienced sf writer.

I do rather like "The Squire of Gothos." But I would incinerate in a burning sun every single Q episode of TNG. One "Squire of Gothos" was enough.

[conuly]

I find Q a lot less annoying when he's hassling Janeway rather than when he's hassling Picard, not gonna lie

[calimac]

I've never seen any of Voyager. You mean Q shows up in that also? A good reason to continue not seeing it.

[conuly]

Voyager is not that bad! And yes, Q shows up there too. You can skip his episodes if you hate him that much. Again, I find him a lot less annoying in Voyager than I've found him in TNG.

[frandroid]

For Voyager, I could only bring myself to do a run-through with a meta-episode guide, i.e. someone brought 6 episode guides together and made averages in an Excel spreadsheet, and I basically skipped anything that did not have at least 3 out of 5 stars. Maybe there's a meta-guide for TNG as well...

[conuly]

I swear, my very first foray into fanfic, if I ever get around to it / work up the courage, is going to be a total ground-up Voyager rewrite.

This may involve shamelessly shuffling episodes around because fuck it.

[calimac]

I rewatched a big chunk of TOS a couple years ago and wrote a report here, which names some of what I consider the best episodes (when it was good, it was very very good) and the worst (which includes a couple of the most renowned).

Part 1

Part 2

[cellio]

I watched all of TNG at the time but haven't watched any recently. Names of episodes mostly elude me, but one standout is "The Inner Light".

I hated Q and (for DS9) most of the Ferengi-focused episodes.

[conuly]

Yeah, the Ferengi-episodes are an acquired taste at best.

[gwydion]

The Neelex thing was a major contributor to me bailing on Voyager.

[conuly]

Yeah. There are a few Neelix-focused episodes that aren't bad, but... I think the writers liked him way too much for a character they didn't understand. And I know they didn't understand him because they could never quite figure out who he was supposed to be!

[gwydion]

I think you put your finger on it.

[solarbird]

Yeah, I watched the pilot for Voyager recently and it's like... wow. This is a show making a lot of promises... that it didn't deliver on.

But that's still one hell of a pilot.