This is deeply disturbing

[conuly]

Content warning: Joss Whedon

I don't know what, exactly, could've prompted the "Joss isn't allowed alone in the same room as young adolescent Michelle Trachtenberg" rule, but it can't have been anything good.

(Some people are, of course, putting out arguments that this statement is vaguely worded because nothing happened or that this rule isn't a special Joss-only rule but generally applied when there are teens and kids on set. Those are fancy ways of calling her a liar. They can't all be lying, guys.)

Let's be clear, the problem here isn't Joss. I mean, it is Joss Whedon, he is very obviously a problem and by now he's also a money-losing problem, but the problem isn't (just) him, and it's certainly not the people he hurt who had trouble coming forward. The problem is the people who knew about it, and had real power to take real actions to stop it and then decided... not to. Because Joss Whedon was making them money. They didn't care. Those people probably still don't care, but they're at least motivated by the bottom line.

Comments

[the_siobhan]

When I was in middle school, so say 13-16, there was a teacher that all the older girls warned the first year girls about. Don't be alone in a room with him. If he brings you in after class make sure there is somebody with you. Things like that.

To this day I wonder how many of the other teachers knew and did nothing.

[brokenallbroken]

She also said in reply to SMG's post something along the lines of "we win by surviving".

It takes extraordinary circumstances for a person to do something only once.

[conuly]

If the students all knew, most or all of the teachers knew - or if they didn't, they must've all been quite dangerously incompetent.

[conuly]

(Thanks for giving an age range, btw - when I hear "middle school" I think "roughly 10 - 13", which is a heck of a lot worse for that anecdote, inasmuch as it can get worse.)

[conuly]

She also said in reply to SMG's post something along the lines of "we win by surviving".

Of course, she's just my age, but it's hard to think of her as anything other than a kid. Because she was a kid! She was barely in high school!

[brokenallbroken]

I was going to say "and notice how quickly she dropped off the map after that", but it looks like she kept working. The only titles I recognize where she was a regular, though, are Weeds and Gossip Girl. Certainly nothing on the scale SMG and Aly Hannigan managed.

[sara]

We had a rule like that at my work about me and a guy who was a serial sexual harasser. He hadn't harassed me sexually but it was definitely so misogynist in one meeting that I came back and said I'm never taking a one on one meeting with that man again, ever.

I think that rule was all that kept me from being hurt like he hurt several other women I know.

By itself this says the man's a missing stair.

[calimac]

This news is still being processed, and it's not at all clear who knew and who didn't. Tony Head says he knew absolutely nothing, and professes extreme distress at this.

[conuly]

I've heard several of the other actors stating they didn't know (about this rule specifically). It seems likely that, as much as possible, they'd tamp down this news. If the actors didn't need to know, why tell them?

[conuly]

By itself this says the man's a missing stair.

Mmmhm.

[shadowkat]

Head wouldn't know anything. Michelle came on the show in S5, and Head was one leg out the door. By S6, he was more or less on the way out. And this sort of thing often happens behind closed doors or one on one. And...not everyone was on set at the same time. Head didn't have a lot of scenes with Dawn. I doubt he saw anything. And no one would have said anything to him.

Completely Agree

[shadowkat]

Some people are, of course, putting out arguments that this statement is vaguely worded because nothing happened or that this rule isn't a special Joss-only rule but generally applied when there are teens and kids on set. Those are fancy ways of calling her a liar. They can't all be lying, guys.)

Yep, I keep fighting with them on Instagram or restraining myself from doing so. I responded to one who tried that on Marsters post, and two idiots on Trachenbergs. I feel bad for being uncertain about Fisher.

More people have come out now - we now have Marti Noxon stating that she will validate their stories. And Jose Molina - writer for Firefly - validated it. As did Christopher Golden who wrote the books. And James Marsters came out in support - vague and carefully worded - and similar to Sarah's - which was "Buffy set certainly had its challenges". J. August did as well - also vague. Dusku supported Charisma's. Mere Smith - writer on Angel supported Charisma's. Emma Caulfield has been liking all the posts.

Let's be clear, the problem here isn't Joss. I mean, it is Joss Whedon, he is very obviously a problem and by now he's also a money-losing problem, but the problem isn't (just) him, and it's certainly not the people he hurt who had trouble coming forward. The problem is the people who knew about it, and had real power to take real actions to stop it and then decided... not to. Because Joss Whedon was making them money. They didn't care. Those people probably still don't care, but they're at least motivated by the bottom line.

Yep. This came out of an internal legal investigation that Warner Brothers was forced to conduct by a lawsuit filed by Ray Fisher - regarding their firing of him from the Flash due to his allegations against Whedon regarding "racist" behavior and abuse on the reshoot of Justice League. Warner's executives were supporting Whedon and tried to cover it up. Note - Warner Brothers aka WB was the network that Buffy aired on and had hired Joss to show-run Buffy, along with Fox, which was the studio he had the deal. [This is before Fox was bought by Disney]. Fox also was the studio he worked with for Firefly, Angel, and Dollhouse. He was left alone on Buffy - given full creative freedom. David Greenwalt was provided as his "keeper" or co-showrunner. And Greenwalt has had issues as well.

On the set of Buffy and Angel - David Boreanze was allowed to wander about without pants and flash people - Whedon thought it was funny and allowed it. David also pulled pranks - which were permitted.

Also, Amber Benson states in her tweet - "It was a toxic work environment and that happens from the top." Whedon was given free reign, and little supervision.

So you are absolutely right - the problem isn't Joss. And it's not limited to Joss. We have the epitome of bullies, the King of insults, a man who spews hate wherever he goes on trial for impeachment in the Senate, and the GOP wants to let him off the hook? It's across the board. Every workplace I've been in - has been toxic on some level. I've lost track of the number of bosses who had me in tears and gave me nightmares. And it hasn't been until recently that we even had serial bullying laws in place.

[calimac]

This is the Tony Head interview. He's not addressing only the Michelle Trachtenberg allegations. He seems to be talking about the whole spectrum from Charisma Carpenter on, whom he certainly worked extensively with on Buffy, or at least the article is written that way.

[rhoda_rants]

"Let's be clear, the problem here isn't Joss. I mean, it is Joss Whedon, he is very obviously a problem and by now he's also a money-losing problem"

Yep. This is only happening NOW because it's more lucrative to condemn him than keep protecting him. That is literally all these people care about.

So many of my friends are talking about this, I'll probably write my own Thing at some point, I just don't know what yet. Because for some of them, this IS the first they're hearing about it. I remember hearing Carpenter's story years ago, and then all the discourse about That One Line in the Loki vs Natasha interrogation scene, and a number of criticisms about Firefly, and just kept . . . quietly not talking about it or making excuses because it didn't seem like anyone else cared, and why ruin everyone's good time? Can't really go backwards on that, but that's on me. But I'm wondering now how many others felt the same way.

[shadowkat]

I've seen the Head interview.

Most of what happened with Charisma was on Angel during S3-S4. (And Head admits he was long gone by then.) Also, again, I can't emphasize this enough - there's no reason Head would know or have seen anything. Unless you've been in a toxic work situation or living situation or school situation, you may not understand? Most of the abuse is subtle and happens behind closed doors. It's almost impossible to prove because of that. And the person in power - literally has all the power. People often hand wave things they shouldn't.

Examples?

From both commentary and Q&A's - David Boreanze was permitted to wander around the set with no pants on and flashing women. Whedon alludes to it with laughter in an outtakes blooper reel in the DVDs of maybe S2? I can't remember which one. And in interviews. Eliza Dusku and Julie Benze also refer to it in Q&A's - a Buffy panel at a convention with Marsters. Marsters was shocked - he'd never seen it. But Nick Brendan had and confirmed it happened on Buffy too. Benz turned to him and said, "Why would you? Of course you didn't."

What happened with Michelle was when she was "alone" with Whedon.

Whedon was "casually" cruel and drove women to tears when he met with them, and bragged about it to fellow male writers. Marti Noxon was nicknamed "Suicide Girl".

Head was kept away from it - Whedon wouldn't have let him know. I doubt Hannigan, Denisof, or Acker noticed. Alan Tudyk didn't, but why would he?

The reason this abuse has continued for so long across industries is people believe and enable the abuser. "Oh, you are overreacting." or "Oh that's just this industry, grow up." or "Oh he was just joking or that's just the way he is...". This behavior has been justified in that industry for over a century now. I've lost count of the number of allegations that I've read about.

It's also why it is so hard to get out of a domestic violence situation. People choose what to believe - and if they like someone, and that person has been kind and wonderful to them? They can't believe they've done anything horrible. But people are more than one thing - and can be wonderful and horrible at the same time. I know I've experienced it myself. I've seen it myself.

And, we live in a culture that like it or not - blames the victim. We don't believe the victim in this culture, we believe the...abuser. (Just look at what is happening in our Federal Government at the moment.)

[shadowkat]

I felt the same way for some time now, actually pretty much going all the way back to 2002.

I knew about the Carpenter situation, but I also had information that made it difficult to know what to think about it. One of my fandom friends at the time it occurred - told me that the WB had asked Whedon to get rid of Greenwalt and Carpenter who were causing delays and problems on set. His best friend was Greenwalt's production assistant at the time. I did not know anything outside of that story, and Minear's post on the Angel Soul Board and in interviews - that Whedon had come up with this great villain arc for Cordelia - where Angel would have to kill her at the end. But Carpenter got pregnant and ruined the arc - they couldn't do it with the Big Bad Pregnant Lady. And Whedon was angry. I did not know how he treated her. So I handwaved it at the time as diva behavior on the set.

The reason this is coming out right now, however, is not because it's more lucrative to condemn him. Ray Fisher is the reason. Ray Fisher is a black actor who played Cyborg in Justice League. Justice League had problems - Zack Snyder the director/show-runner had to leave prior to post-production because his son committed suicide. So WB/DC hired Joss Whedon to finish the film. The reshoot was not a pleasant experience, apparently. Gail Gadot had issues with Whedon and they had her body double do a lot of the reshoots, since she refused to work with him. This was behind the scenes. And all she said was - "I had a bad experience, and handled it immediately." Fisher also apparently did, and was supported by Jason M (Aquaman). WB handled Fisher's allegations by hand-waving them and firing him from the Flash movie - which he was set to star in. Fisher filed a lawsuit forcing WB to do an internal investigation. During the investigation - Fisher's lawyers reached out to others who may have similarly been abused on Whedon film and television sets to see if there was a pattern. Charisma Carpenter was contacted and came forward. Her post was to support his. Up until her post, no one would believe Ray Fisher. And up until Amber Benson, SMG, and Michelle - not everyone believed Charisma.

But you are right - Whedon's abusive behavior has been floating around fandom for a while since 2002 if not before. The Q&A's posted to youtube with the actors - all have stories of behavior on that set that is kind of horrifying. Also the stunt coordinators posted stuff as well. We just didn't know what to believe and/or didn't want to believe it.

And yes, WB and Fox enabled it. Plus this type of behavior has been going in the entertainment industry since it started and is considered the norm.

[silveradept]

Joss is now a much more high profile example of the missing stair and now there's enough people supporting each other that it can't be ignored.

I do think there's some sort of…something here that this is becoming high profile not long after another missing stair finally left the office of the Presidency.

[greghousesgf]

the whole thing makes me sick.

[calimac]

I'm not sure why you're so anxious - 440 words! and this is your second shot at it! - to present strained scenarios whereby Tony Head wasn't there when it happened. (Amber Benson indicates it was pretty endemic.) Especially since you're also arguing that he could have been there but not seen it, if Joss kept it hidden from the innocent men.

But that was my point. Tony Head never claimed that it didn't happen or that the accusers are deluded; and neither did I. He's appalled that it happened, and appalled that he didn't know.

As for me, I brought this up in the first place specifically to reply to the question of the culpability of those who saw but didn't say anything. I was making the point that if they didn't see, they're not culpable, at least in that manner. This has nothing to do with denial of the incidents, so you're wasting your time preaching to the choir about the reality of the abuse.

[rhoda_rants]

Yeah, I remember lots of weird, sometimes conflicting information, and people writing off Carpenter as a diva, which kind of fit her character on the show, so maybe that "helped" in a way.

The lawsuit was kind of what I meant by "not lucrative," but you're right: Ray Fisher is the real hero behind this mess. I didn't watch the Justice League movie (the only current DC movies I've bothered with are Wonder Woman, Birds of Prey, and Joker), so I keep forgetting there's a not-Buffy-related reason this is all coming out, partly because Buffy is dominating my social media feeds so much. Gah, just everything about the Justice League reshoots/director's cut/whatever they're doing with it now just makes it worse and worse. I wish they'd just let this movie fail and be done with it.

---

[shadowkat]

Zack Snyder - the original director - who is doing his cut, is actually - as far as I can tell at any rate - is a good person. Apparently he left because his oldest daughter committed suicide - which gutted him. So he left film-making and created a philanthropy - "Suicide Prevention" and through his Director's Cut of Justice League (t-shirts, etc) raised over $500,000 for the philanthropy.

So, that party of the story...is, while tragic, is also kind of humane, and hopeful. Snyder is also kind of battling the WB management, along with his fans.

Snyder was the producer behind Birds of Prey, Wonder Woman, etc. But in the background. In his version Cyborg (Ray Fisher) apparently had more of a role.

But yep, Ray Fisher is the true hero. He wouldn't give up - at great cost to his own career. He was pressing these allegations since 2017. And he pushed Charisma to tell her story - which she'd hand-waved previously.

Oh, Adam Busch has now come out in support.