Is it just me, or is there a real problem in fantasy/sci-fi books with believable kids?

[conuly]

It seems that people don't write kids well. Kids in sci-fi and fantasy can't just be kids, they always have to be precocious, and usually friendless. You don't ever have kids who just sit and play video games, you have kids like Ender, who play video games that kill real aliens, and are better at it than any of the adults. Or Tiffany Aching, who knows more words than the adults around her and, again, can do what adults can't do. Or Kit and Nita, who end up giving a lecture to Nita's parents on responsibility (though they're less of a dramatic example than the other two). Wesley Crusher is always saving the Enterprise. I can go on, but I really don't want to have to search up books for references. I want answers. IS this real, and if so, why? And does this problem exist in other genres?

Comments

[ptigga.livejournal.com]

Kids who play video games all day generally aren't interesting enough to write books about.

Well, with the notable exception of the Johnny and the Bomb series by Pratchett :).

[conuly]

They don't have to play video games all day, but do they have to speak like adults, play chess better than anybody they know, be working on a college level at the age of 7, and unsocial ONLY because the other kids are too immature, not because they're just not good with people (but are, in fact, geniuses when it comes to personal interaction, as well as in every other way)?

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

Because the people who read these books want a hero to relate to, regardless of age. Because the books are also written for adults--at least, all the examples you've given are.

You want books about children who act like children? Try Judy Blum. Or, if you want them in the same genre, try the Narnia series. Yes, the 'children' were kings and queens, eventually, in that other world, but not much is written about *that* time. For the most part, they're acting like kids. Or try Susan Cooper's The Dark is Rising Series. The Drew children act like kids.

[moggymania.livejournal.com]

I remember being forced to read books FULL of stereotypical "normal" (lazy, stupid, hyper, angsty, loud, aggressive) kids in English classes as a teen, and I detested all of them. I've just never liked that kind of person at all, regardless of age. If children's fantasy *didn't* focus primarily on the intellectual/talented kids (with all of the traits you listed), I wouldn't have been able to identify with them or enjoy the story.

The one huge thing I *don't* like about most fantasy characters (including Nita/Kit) is that they're way too obedient and/or good natured.

Still, there are some characters that have all of the "good" traits I like, while retaining some degree of rebelliousness -- Dairine (Diane Duane) as well as most DWJ characters would qualify there.

[jean-prouvaire.livejournal.com]

Ugh. I know. It's the reason I despise Dakota Fanning so much, too--it's so much worse in movies/TV shows.

Kit and Nita may not be quite as bad, but have you read "High Wizardry" yet? Dairine is a nightmare. An 11-year-old with better computer-hacking skills than my tech director? I think not.

Though to be fair, Diane Duane does at least have a sense of the emotional issues such a precocious kid would have. I mean, Dairine is a majorly fucked-up little kid with no sense of restraint or responsibility for her actions. But she's still an unrealistic character. There is not an 11-year-old on earth with an IQ like that.

[conuly]

There's got to be, somewhere, a line between "normal and obnoxious" and "superkid, the wave of the future". Can't they be nice, a little smart, without being more adult than the adults around them, and smarter?

[conuly]

Ender's game is, and has been, in the kid's section. I maintain that if you've got a child as your main character, it should be a child, not an adult playacting. (Not that your answer didn't make sense, it's just not a happy answer.)

[conuly]

Hush, you, High Wizardry is my favorite of the series. Especially since after that they all kinda skip over 10 years in one summer.

[jean-prouvaire.livejournal.com]

No, I loved "High Wizardry" too (though "Deep Wizardry" has got to be my all-time favorite, even with all the religious symbolism). I was just always a little weirded-out by Dairine.

I haven't read past "High Wizardry." What are the other books called? (And please tell me that Kit and Nita don't get together in any of them. Or at least that Tom and Carl finally come out of the damn closet. *grin*)

[conuly]

You haven't read them? The next one (ten years or one summer later) is A Wizard Abroad.

Here, visit youngwizards and ask there. God knows we could use the traffic.

[jean-prouvaire.livejournal.com]

Ooh, okay. (Shall try to procure the next books. I've just gotten my little sister started on the first three. I just hope Dairine doesn't give her an inferiority complex. *grin*)

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

*laughs*

So your next rant is gonna be about adult heroes who act like children most of the time, right?

Yepyepyep. Stephen Donaldson's White Gold Wielder (Chronicles of Thomas Covenant) series comes to mind . . . Hee hee.

[conuly]

Act like children in the bad way? Sure thing. In the good way (childlike as compared to childish), I can't complain. Would be hypocritical.

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

In the bad way indeed. I can't finish the series because I keep wanting to slap all the main characters, then send them to a timeout until they're ready to be seen in polite company again.

[moggymania.livejournal.com]

Well, that's what I was thinking of when I mentioned DWJ in particular -- her characters usually *are* rounded out that way. (That's one of the things I really admire about her work; her characters just tend to be realistic.)

Still, though, I think part of why I don't mind the things you're protesting is because they're what reality was like for me growing up. I've never been able to assume, even when I was a college student at Berkeley, that somebody being older than I am would mean that they were more experienced, more mature, or smarter -- usually it was the opposite.

Still, I don't like it when the adult characters in any kind of books are all portrayed as being stupid/immature to the point that the kids do have to swoop in. I think that's more of a flaw in the way the adults are portrayed (like in the Harry Potter books) than the children, though. The kids are realistic much of the time from my viewpoint in those cases, but the *adults* are poorly-written.

I'm 27, and I'm not an inept moron that needs a little kid to come save my day... At the same time, though, I do recognize that there *are* (statistically extremely rare) kids in the world with more painful life experiences, higher IQ, and/or stronger talents than I have right now. They'd just be the ones used as characters in books, and only a few rare authors (like DWJ) bother creating realistic variants on what those kids would actually be like 20 years later.

[ladytalon.livejournal.com]

Heh, Dairine gives me an inferiority complex, and I'm 23. ^_~ (Although I strongly identify with her love for Star Wars.)

[ladytalon.livejournal.com]

I agree with a previous poster that I don't want to read books about normal kids. There's regular ol' non-magical fiction for that. Also I tend to hate kids, so I'm generally relieved when the child in question is a bit precocious...

But I can also think of plenty of cases where authors have written believable children--not boring, but also not superkids. I just finished rereading C. S. Friedman's fantasy trilogy, and the second book has a very adorable girl. And one of my favorite books, Shade's Children, has several kids as main characters--regular kids, with slight superpowers, in a post-apocalyptic world. So it's interesting to see how they react.

[foxfirefey]

I think it often happens in comics as well -- Bloom County, Calvin and Hobbes both have children spouting off whatever is at hand. The children become vehicles for platitudes that you can't put in the mouths of adults.

Yes, it's real, but I know there are some stories/books out there that do better at it. It seems to be more of a trap when the main character is a child -- the children are much more child-like in say, Speaker for the Dead. Like Grego peeing on Ender, yum.

On the other hand, I first read Ender's Game when I was a child of ten or eleven and adored it...So even if the children are not written as children, sometimes they are not beyond a child's possible point of view.

[snarkophagus.livejournal.com]

It's definitely a trend that I've noticed, which is why I've shied away from fantasy involving kids. Most of it is just outside the range of believable for me.

As for genres, I haven't noticed the same issues with kids in anything other than fantasy. I could just be reading the wrong books, but I've seen more childlike behavior in the children in other genres.

On the other hand, when I was a child, I loved to see that kind of thing in books. I never perceived myself as more intelligent than the adults around me, but I also never fit in with kids my age. At that time, it was very easy for me to identify with the fictional children who I just can't credit now.

[shavedapebaby.livejournal.com]

I agree with what you're saying, but without precocious kids we wouldn't have half of Robert Heinlein's work or Artemis Fowl, so it's a trade-off.

[takaal.livejournal.com]

In romances, the kids are either bright, shiny, well-mannered little angels, or demons from hell that must be Won Over. Unless, of course, it's the heroine's child/younger sibling, in which case it's bright and mostly respectful, with a token spot of rebellion thrown in.

I can't think of anything in the genre I've read in the past five years that *doesn't* put the children-in-question neatly into one of those three categories.

[ptigga.livejournal.com]

Kids who play video games all day generally aren't interesting enough to write books about.

Well, with the notable exception of the Johnny and the Bomb series by Pratchett :).

[conuly]

They don't have to play video games all day, but do they have to speak like adults, play chess better than anybody they know, be working on a college level at the age of 7, and unsocial ONLY because the other kids are too immature, not because they're just not good with people (but are, in fact, geniuses when it comes to personal interaction, as well as in every other way)?

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

Because the people who read these books want a hero to relate to, regardless of age. Because the books are also written for adults--at least, all the examples you've given are.

You want books about children who act like children? Try Judy Blum. Or, if you want them in the same genre, try the Narnia series. Yes, the 'children' were kings and queens, eventually, in that other world, but not much is written about *that* time. For the most part, they're acting like kids. Or try Susan Cooper's The Dark is Rising Series. The Drew children act like kids.

[moggymania.livejournal.com]

I remember being forced to read books FULL of stereotypical "normal" (lazy, stupid, hyper, angsty, loud, aggressive) kids in English classes as a teen, and I detested all of them. I've just never liked that kind of person at all, regardless of age. If children's fantasy *didn't* focus primarily on the intellectual/talented kids (with all of the traits you listed), I wouldn't have been able to identify with them or enjoy the story.

The one huge thing I *don't* like about most fantasy characters (including Nita/Kit) is that they're way too obedient and/or good natured.

Still, there are some characters that have all of the "good" traits I like, while retaining some degree of rebelliousness -- Dairine (Diane Duane) as well as most DWJ characters would qualify there.

[jean-prouvaire.livejournal.com]

Ugh. I know. It's the reason I despise Dakota Fanning so much, too--it's so much worse in movies/TV shows.

Kit and Nita may not be quite as bad, but have you read "High Wizardry" yet? Dairine is a nightmare. An 11-year-old with better computer-hacking skills than my tech director? I think not.

Though to be fair, Diane Duane does at least have a sense of the emotional issues such a precocious kid would have. I mean, Dairine is a majorly fucked-up little kid with no sense of restraint or responsibility for her actions. But she's still an unrealistic character. There is not an 11-year-old on earth with an IQ like that.

[conuly]

There's got to be, somewhere, a line between "normal and obnoxious" and "superkid, the wave of the future". Can't they be nice, a little smart, without being more adult than the adults around them, and smarter?

[conuly]

Ender's game is, and has been, in the kid's section. I maintain that if you've got a child as your main character, it should be a child, not an adult playacting. (Not that your answer didn't make sense, it's just not a happy answer.)

[conuly]

Hush, you, High Wizardry is my favorite of the series. Especially since after that they all kinda skip over 10 years in one summer.

[jean-prouvaire.livejournal.com]

No, I loved "High Wizardry" too (though "Deep Wizardry" has got to be my all-time favorite, even with all the religious symbolism). I was just always a little weirded-out by Dairine.

I haven't read past "High Wizardry." What are the other books called? (And please tell me that Kit and Nita don't get together in any of them. Or at least that Tom and Carl finally come out of the damn closet. *grin*)

[conuly]

You haven't read them? The next one (ten years or one summer later) is A Wizard Abroad.

Here, visit youngwizards and ask there. God knows we could use the traffic.

[jean-prouvaire.livejournal.com]

Ooh, okay. (Shall try to procure the next books. I've just gotten my little sister started on the first three. I just hope Dairine doesn't give her an inferiority complex. *grin*)

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

*laughs*

So your next rant is gonna be about adult heroes who act like children most of the time, right?

Yepyepyep. Stephen Donaldson's White Gold Wielder (Chronicles of Thomas Covenant) series comes to mind . . . Hee hee.

[conuly]

Act like children in the bad way? Sure thing. In the good way (childlike as compared to childish), I can't complain. Would be hypocritical.

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

In the bad way indeed. I can't finish the series because I keep wanting to slap all the main characters, then send them to a timeout until they're ready to be seen in polite company again.

[moggymania.livejournal.com]

Well, that's what I was thinking of when I mentioned DWJ in particular -- her characters usually *are* rounded out that way. (That's one of the things I really admire about her work; her characters just tend to be realistic.)

Still, though, I think part of why I don't mind the things you're protesting is because they're what reality was like for me growing up. I've never been able to assume, even when I was a college student at Berkeley, that somebody being older than I am would mean that they were more experienced, more mature, or smarter -- usually it was the opposite.

Still, I don't like it when the adult characters in any kind of books are all portrayed as being stupid/immature to the point that the kids do have to swoop in. I think that's more of a flaw in the way the adults are portrayed (like in the Harry Potter books) than the children, though. The kids are realistic much of the time from my viewpoint in those cases, but the *adults* are poorly-written.

I'm 27, and I'm not an inept moron that needs a little kid to come save my day... At the same time, though, I do recognize that there *are* (statistically extremely rare) kids in the world with more painful life experiences, higher IQ, and/or stronger talents than I have right now. They'd just be the ones used as characters in books, and only a few rare authors (like DWJ) bother creating realistic variants on what those kids would actually be like 20 years later.

[ladytalon.livejournal.com]

Heh, Dairine gives me an inferiority complex, and I'm 23. ^_~ (Although I strongly identify with her love for Star Wars.)

[ladytalon.livejournal.com]

I agree with a previous poster that I don't want to read books about normal kids. There's regular ol' non-magical fiction for that. Also I tend to hate kids, so I'm generally relieved when the child in question is a bit precocious...

But I can also think of plenty of cases where authors have written believable children--not boring, but also not superkids. I just finished rereading C. S. Friedman's fantasy trilogy, and the second book has a very adorable girl. And one of my favorite books, Shade's Children, has several kids as main characters--regular kids, with slight superpowers, in a post-apocalyptic world. So it's interesting to see how they react.

[foxfirefey]

I think it often happens in comics as well -- Bloom County, Calvin and Hobbes both have children spouting off whatever is at hand. The children become vehicles for platitudes that you can't put in the mouths of adults.

Yes, it's real, but I know there are some stories/books out there that do better at it. It seems to be more of a trap when the main character is a child -- the children are much more child-like in say, Speaker for the Dead. Like Grego peeing on Ender, yum.

On the other hand, I first read Ender's Game when I was a child of ten or eleven and adored it...So even if the children are not written as children, sometimes they are not beyond a child's possible point of view.

[snarkophagus.livejournal.com]

It's definitely a trend that I've noticed, which is why I've shied away from fantasy involving kids. Most of it is just outside the range of believable for me.

As for genres, I haven't noticed the same issues with kids in anything other than fantasy. I could just be reading the wrong books, but I've seen more childlike behavior in the children in other genres.

On the other hand, when I was a child, I loved to see that kind of thing in books. I never perceived myself as more intelligent than the adults around me, but I also never fit in with kids my age. At that time, it was very easy for me to identify with the fictional children who I just can't credit now.

[shavedapebaby.livejournal.com]

I agree with what you're saying, but without precocious kids we wouldn't have half of Robert Heinlein's work or Artemis Fowl, so it's a trade-off.

[takaal.livejournal.com]

In romances, the kids are either bright, shiny, well-mannered little angels, or demons from hell that must be Won Over. Unless, of course, it's the heroine's child/younger sibling, in which case it's bright and mostly respectful, with a token spot of rebellion thrown in.

I can't think of anything in the genre I've read in the past five years that *doesn't* put the children-in-question neatly into one of those three categories.