Speaking of things that irritate me

[conuly]

Mr. Broad Street Well has come back and told me that the pump was "of course" a well because "they didn't have piped water in those days".

I don't know if he thinks they didn't have aqueducts in Europe yet or if he simply thinks that London didn't have any municipal water system other than local wells, but either way he's wrong. The first statement is extremely wrong, and the second is just very wrong - but still, he's wrong and I have told him so. One of the ways we know our ancestors drank water is because they spent a great deal of money building and maintaining infrastructure to pipe water in to crowded areas.

********

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Comments

[oursin]

Just checking Wikipedia (because I don't have Journal of Went to a Seminar on This Once to hand) on London's Water Supply - London had piped water from the C13th:

In 1247 work began on building the Great Conduit from the spring at Tyburn. This was a lead pipe which led via Charing Cross, Strand, Fleet Street and Ludgate to a large cistern or tank in Cheapside.[1][2] The city authorities appointed keepers of the conduits who controlled access so that users such as brewers, cooks and fishmongers would pay for the water they used. Wealthy Londoners living near the conduit pipe could obtain permission for a connection to their homes, but this did not prevent unauthorised tapping of conduits.

and pumped water supplies from C16th: 'In 1582, Dutchman Peter Morice (died 1588) developed one of the first pumped water supply systems for the City of London, powered by undershot waterwheels housed in the northernmost arches of London Bridge spanning the River Thames.'

[conuly]

Yup.

And his response to me telling him I'd reconsider my position if he could find a historian to cite who agrees that people in the historic past may have not drunk water due to contamination was to... link me to a book on the Broad Street Pump incident.

I'm not sure if it's worse that he thinks continuing to harp on this one single incident creates the impression that this was widespread throughout history OR if it's worse that he doesn't understand the difference between a historian and an author who majored in literature, but either way, it's not good.

[oursin]

The context of that famous 'Monster Soup' cartoon (I have a mug with this on) was precisely that people were routinely drinking Thames water! (is he really arguing without even looking up Wikipedia on London's Water Supply??? OMG WTF boggle)

[alexseanchai]

re Confederate-named schools: I am curious to know when these schools were built, particularly with respect to the civil rights movement. (Not curious enough to click the link, though.) I was also going to say I am curious if they're counting Beauvoir Elementary, but turns out that school has ceased to be sometime between now and when I attended Jefferson Davis Elementary. (the original Beauvoir is the said man's house.) And in googling Biloxi public schools to make sure I had the spelling right, I learned that Jefferson Davis Elementary is changing its name. *floored*

the Nero article fascinates me; not sure how to describe my reaction to the one about coronavirus in Africa (it sounds like a lot of the possibilities for why the lower fatality rate amount to poverty and, to whatever extent this is separate from poverty, low life expectancy?) but fewer deaths is good

[calimac]

Huh? The Romans had water pipes.

[elainegrey]

As someone with a well, perhaps Mr Broas Street Well grew up in the sticks? I dunno. I remember in Philly the concern about lead in the water due to very old piping and a rumor that some of the water was still going through tree trunk pipes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/05/06/discovered-philadelphias-high-tech-totally-natural-plumbing-of-1812/

[jhetley]

You remind me of that old saying, "Never waste time arguing with a fool. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

[conuly]

That's amazing.

[conuly]

He thinks he's smarter than I am.

[conuly]

I'm really curious now as to what historians think of his cited book.

[conuly]

They sure did!

[oursin]

Not currently running with cutting-edge historians of Victorian sanitarian interventions, but what is the book?

[conuly]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ghost_Map

[conuly]

Though I've never read it, so I'll give the author the credit of not accusing the Victorians of having totally forgotten about their pre-existing infrastructure.

[oursin]

I've never read it, but the reviewer for The Lancet was distinctly snarky and tending to dismiss it as pop history, though as he works in similar areas, may be a certain professional rivalry going on there! Other reviews tend to suggest over-simplification and prioritising telling a good story.

[conuly]

Incidentally, several things I've read since the start of the pandemic suggest a. aerosol transmission of disease is a lot more common than medical research indicated because b. doctors were so eager to dismiss the miasma theory that they tossed the baby out with the bathwater and now people hardly ever consider it.

[movingfinger]

Periodically someone doing street work in older cities (in the US anyway) digs up sections of well-preserved elm trunk. I can't remember whether it was in the US or UK that the water system was referred to as "tree" because hollowed elm was used. And I'm not even a historian. Although I think the last I heard of a lot of Colonial and early 19c wood water main being replaced was probably the 1980s, here is a relatively recent item about more recent "stave" pipe:

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/wooden-water-main-not-unique/

Still being installed in the 20c:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/09/03/rare-100-year-old-wooden-water-pipe-unearthed-in-maryland-suburbs/

[conuly]

Fascinating, thanks.

[greghousesgf]

I'd like to know what the new names of these schools are. The articles I read didn't say.

[dhampyresa]

"they didn't have piped water in those days".
*stares in tunnel of Eupalinos*

[jessie_c]

Growl. The image won't work. I'll have to post this linky instead. grumblegrumblemutter.

[alexseanchai]

the article I linked is only an announcement of the start of the name change process, and it's dated yesterday; the district doesn't know the new name yet either

and looks like what happened with Beauvoir Elementary is it straight up shut down ten years ago, district budget reasons; meanwhile, while finding that out, I found Beauvoir the Confederate presidential library lost its Literary Landmark status in June, guess why

[alexseanchai]

huh, that's weird, let me try:



*previews* yeah that works fine with the following HTML:

<a href="https://xkcd.com/386/"><img src="https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png" alt="xkcd 386: this one-panel comic depicts one person typing at a desktop computer, conversing with someone offscreen. 'Are you coming to bed?' asks Offscreen. Typist says, 'I can't. This is important.' Offscreen asks, 'What?' Typist says, and the third word is underlined for emphasis, 'Someone is wrong on the internet.' The hover text on the original comic reads, 'What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!'" /></a>

[greghousesgf]

I read some other articles besides the one you linked. None of them says what they're changing any of these schools' names to.

[jessie_c]

Same thing happened with my image. The image isn't displaying but the alt text is.

[alexseanchai]

…the image is showing, though?

[jessie_c]

Alas, not here :(
I suspect it's some sort of phase of the moon error or something.

[janewilliams20.livejournal.com]

Googling to find context.... yes, of course it's a pump, every article calls it a pump and includes pictures of a pump. And "in those days"???? It's modern! 1854, ffs!
Yes, that particular pump drew water from a well. So what? It's still a pump!

And taking the opportunity to learn things... a quick Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_water_supply_infrastructure#Early_London_water_supply
We don't get to know about the early history of piped water from that, but it goes back to 1247

[conuly]

The 1200s in London, longer in other places.

[janewilliams20.livejournal.com]

Well, yes, as always. And the pump in question is in London.