conuly | Just finished A Wizard's Guide To Defensive Baking by T. Kingfisher

also known as Ursula Vernon, and this book is definitely a bit more middle grade than her usual Kingfisher fare. Great book, the plot held up, kudos to our kid protagonist pointing out that she would not have had to be a hero if the adults in charge had put the minimum effort into doing their jobs (something more kid protagonists in this sort of book need to both realize and say).

One small comment. In the footnote, our beloved author states that she learned baking specifically for this book, she's not really a baker - and I gotta say, I guessed that already. Not to ever criticize her, but at a few points I questioned whether our protagonist - or, more accurately, our author - really understood the difference between cookie dough and bread dough. It was a little jarring in what's really a well-written book.

Oh well, it's a petty thing.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

dhampyresa

I realy want to know about the difference between cookie dough ad bread dough!

From:

gingicat

Oh gosh, I could write a photographic essay. Should I?

From:

steorra

My reaction would be: yeast and gluten development.

Bread dough is a yeast dough. It needs a substantial rising time to let the yeast grow and work. And it benefits from being kneaded/worked to develop the gluten and give it the right texture.

Cookie dough is typically a chemical-leavened dough. The rising happens as a chemical reaction shortly after it's mixed. Leaving it long won't cause it to rise more. And working it too much can destroy bubbles that have been formed.

From:

conuly

In addition to the leavening, when it comes to gingerbread I'm thinking of the sheer amount of butter and sugar in that recipe (because it's cookies) compared to bread. The two doughs aren't going to feel the same when you handle them, and they're not going to do the same sort of things either in or out of the oven, and I'd never go "Oh, well, dough is dough".

Edited Date: 2020-07-29 01:26 am (UTC)

From:

conuly

Yes.

From:

sciatrix

I was personally mildly jarred by the notion that one would refer to cake batter as dough. I mean, you COULD. Cake is clearly a kind of bread, that's obvious enough. But it isn't very dough-y, to put it mildly.

(I am also very much enjoying the book, just... bless you, Ursula, you kitchen disaster.)

From:

calimac

Well, that's weird, because I just read another middle-grade fantasy novel about baking, Midsummer Mayhem by Rajani LaRocca (baking + Midsummer Night's Dream references + Indian-American characters). I think this one is more up to snuff baking-wise, though I can't really tell (I'm not much of a baker myself; my kitchen specialty is skillet casseroles for dinner).

From:

readerjane

I just finished the book yesterday. Such fun. I wish the villain had been a little more three-dimensional, but the protagonist's three-dimensionality more than made up for it.

ETA: Oh, and, I loved the way Mona had enough insight to realize she shouldn't have needed to be a hero, and enough to see that the duchess had inherited a job she maybe wasn't suited for, but not quite enough insight to go from there to "Maybe leadership shouldn't be inherited." Clever, but not anachronistically wise.

Edited Date: 2020-07-29 02:08 am (UTC)

From:

peoriapeoriawhereart

*passes the raisins*

That should make the essay photos parse better. ;^)

From:

peoriapeoriawhereart

Cookie dough is at least more like bread dough, than bread is like quickbreads.

English was a terrible idea.

From:

gingicat

I'm sure that will make more sense after I get further into the book. I can see that I will have to include a link to this Serious Eats sourdough article, because my own sourdough starter is basically an ingredient, as I am *not* a baking wizard.

https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2020/05/sourdough-starter.html

From:

hudebnik

And a third category is doughs that include lots of shortening but no leavening, like for a pie or pasty.

In the past few months I've made several recipes that involve both yeast and large amounts of butter, which was a new combination to me: two versions of Southern-style flaky biscuits (which could have done without the sourdough, but I had discard to use up) and two of croissants. In all these cases there was rolling, folding, and rolling again to develop lots of butter-mediated layers, but the rolling eliminates any CO₂ you've produced so you have to let things rise again before baking.

From:

thewayne

You might want to check out Jim Hines' Tamora Gordon, Goblin Queen. I'm not sure if you can get it yet outside of the recently concluded Kickstarter reward: he just sent out ebooks to backers. 12 y/o rollerderby girl's friend disappears, and she ends up queen of the goblins trying to save him. It was a pretty fun read. Jim's a fun writer and occasionally posts on DW.

Very much YA. Tamora does get a little help from her dad, but she's the main mover and shaker and he's not responsible for what happened through his inaction.

From:

baronessekat

I have followed Ursula for almost 2 decades now as she is one of my favorite artists and have several of her books. (LOVE her Dragonsbreath and Hamster Princess series. and enjoy many of her T. Kingfisher books).

Have you listened to the podcast "Kevin and Ursula Eat Cheap"? It's very clear there that cooking is NOT her forte - which makes it even more fun to listen to.

I have yet to read this book but it is on my list.

From:

conuly

I haven't listened to the podcast!

I have been telling everybody for years that her kids books are genius, and they're on my list of surefire recs for reluctant readers. (Obvs nothing is 100% guaranteed, but they're pretty likely.)

From:

greghousesgf

I'm a foodie and I've worked in a couple of bakeries so that kind of sloppiness bugs me more than it would some other people.

From:

pensnest

I'm still slightly thrown by seeing what I regard as 'cake mixture' referred to as 'batter', because to me, and probably many of my fellow Englishwomen, 'batter' makes pancakes and Yorkshire pudding and the like, but not cake. I was deeply suspicious the first time I followed an American recipe and made cupcakes!

Cake dough, though? No, not unless it is something yeasty like, er...I dunno, saffron buns? Naughty author.

From:

peoriapeoriawhereart

Just if you're going to compare contrast cookies and bread, might as well be raisin cookies and raisin bread.

From:

peoriapeoriawhereart

Butter made the bitter batter better-which is culinarily nonsense but an effective tongue twister. To me mixture would be either the liquid or the dry parts of a dough or batter. If it pours, it's batter.

From:

conuly

Well, it's not nonsense when you start with the bitter butter, as Betty Botter did -

Betty Botter bought some butter
but, she said, this butter's bitter*
if I put it in my batter, it will make my batter bitter
I must buy better butter, better than the bitter butter
I will put it in my batter, and my batter won't be bitter.

* Can butter be bitter?

From:

conuly

What do you think pancakes are if not cake made in a pan?

From:

pensnest

Pancakes are pancakes. And they are fried. Cakes are cakes, and baked.

From:

pensnest

To me, a batter is thin in texture and pours easily. Cake mixture can be poured, but moves slowly, more lava than milk.

The details of language difference are an endless minefield, really.

From:

peoriapeoriawhereart

While it is true cake batter has to be chivvied along with the spatula, pancakes are not as thin as say funnel cake. But yes, this is a very Distinctions you wouldn't wonder until you find "Oh, you use these words when, huh?"

Do you batter things? Because that usage is quite a bit thinner.

From:

sciatrix

Alas, it was specifically described as being dough for a wedding cake which was then iced. I got nothing.

From:

pensnest

I did not know that about funnel cake - though as I've never made it, I suppose that's fair. In fact, I don't think I've eaten it, either.

I don't batter things, at least, only very rarely, but I eat them! The fish from my favourite chippy has exquisite batter on it, I think made with beer.

I was pondering 'pudding' as well, because a British pudding is a thing of splendour and magnificence. As I understand it, American 'pudding' is delicious goo in a small pot. It has led to confusion in the past. I've been writing in an American fandom for, dear me, 15 years now, and there are still some surprises to be had. Chicken salad sandwich also springs to mind.

I seem to be digressing rather a lot from

conuly's post - sorry!

From:

pensnest

Considerably to my surprise, Wikipedia defines batter as a thin dough that can be easily poured into a pan. I don't think I've ever heard this before, but if our author is a novice at baking, it could explain a lot!

From:

peoriapeoriawhereart

Funnel cake is a deep-fried doughy sugar transmitter.

Beer will make batter better and make it rise a little. Pudding to the American is a custard without as many eggs.

From:

spikethemuffin

Just started it. LOVED Minor Mage, sending it to my nephews and my daughter's sisters, it's like a primer for living in the mob age.

But yeah, thanks for the bakerly warning!

From:

conuly

If you're apologizing to me, don't - it's an interesting thread!

From:

pensnest

OH MY GOD. I just looked up funnel cake. It is not at all what I had in my mind, it looks delicious and *deeply* fattening, and it's probably just as well I stopped before downloading the recipe. My goodness! No wonder it is a thin batter.

Pudding to me is either (a) the sweet part of the meal, eaten after the main course (and also known as 'sweet' sometimes), or (b) something resplendently calorie-filled, usually made with suet pastry (which in spite of its name can be delightfully light). Like jam roly poly (with custard, natch) or even Sussex Pond Pudding. It does occur to me that British puddings have rather off-putting names, but they are Good.

Mind you, I have nothing against custard-type puds, but you can't get your teeth into them.

From:

pensnest

:-) I find vocabulary differences catch my attention.

From:

conuly

Funnel cake predates the colonization of America by Europeans.

You can use the same type of batter to make zeppoles instead, which I prefer. Mmm. They're only fattening if you eat them all the time instead of very rarely!

From:

conuly

I wouldn't call it sloppiness, per se - she clearly tried very hard - but I think she should've had a baker friend in to betaread.

From:

peoriapeoriawhereart

They are tasty and while now they are faire food, these are things that were eaten by people that could easily run through 6000 calories or more in a day. If the oil is at the right temperature, it's not as fattening as some might think. They depend on keeping the steam in the batter so they puff.

I think Americans don't really like a lot of tooth to their desserts, but some of it changed as we went to more processed foods. Before that, there'd have been more poached fruits and there was a time pie was so commonly made it had a piece of furniture, the pie safe.

From:

peoriapeoriawhereart

There was a time buns akin to hot crossed buns were used as wedding cakes by icing them up--possibly the term dough 'stuck' from that? Otherwise, it's important to distinguish between bread dough that needs kneading and pie crust dough that should stay cold and not get worked too much.

From:

dhampyresa

Yes please!

From:

dhampyresa

Thank you for enlightening me!

From:

dhampyresa

Thanks for answering <3

From:

mme-n-b.livejournal.com

"something more kid protagonists in this sort of book need to both realize and say" I ordered this book in hard copy precisely because Minor Mage makes this point :) Can't wait to read it.