Somebody commented on my last post that she had no choice but to say the pledge.

[conuly]

This was fine with her (I think her, at least, sorry if you're a him), so there's no issue, but unless she grew up during or prior to the Second World War, she is mistaken.

The first case the Supreme Court heard about this issue was in 1940. It was brought by a family of Jehovah's Witnesses, who maintained that it is a violation of the first commandment, and therefore violated their right to religious freedom. They lost their case. However, this decision was overturned three years later. Since that time, it has been illegal to compel students to say the Pledge of Allegience. It has always been unethical, I think, and certainly unconstitutional... unless you think the writers of the Constitution of the United States believed that the government should be able to compel others to take oaths.

Anyway, that's all I have to say. It is very interesting to note that many people today, especially children, do not realize that they can NOT, legally, be compelled to recite the pledge, or even stand for it, so long as they maintain a respectful silence.

Comments

[nightsea.livejournal.com]

Well, perhaps I misspoke then. As with many things, if we did have a choice, it was never given to us. I was never comfortable leading the pledge, but I still had to do it. In fact, if we forgot the words to the pledge or said the wrong words, we were scolded. I'm not denying that the law you stated exists, but I do find it sad that this is the first time I've ever heard of it. I was never notified of it, and neither was the rest of my class. *shrugs* That's the only part of the issue that bothers me - the lack of being informed.

Oh - and yes, I am a 'she.' *grins*

[conuly]

I know. You didn't misspeak, it just... really upsets me that people lie to children like that. In many cases, the adults know that they're doing something illegal, but they trust that nobody will ever bring a suit against them. In some cases, they just don't care. And, of course, in some it's a crime perpetuated by people who don't know any better. I'm not posting this because I'm upset, I'm posting it because 1. I'm right (and I hate being wrong, I'm just so conceited) and 2. I think it's something useful for people to know.

Besides, since I believe that many more people are actually ignorant of the law than are deliberately lying to children, I figure that a bit of an education will never go awry.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

I admit, when I was little I "had" to say the pledge. No one ever told me I didn't have to, and the teachers always got really angry when I didn't (I hated saying it, even then). So I equated not saying the pledge with getting in trouble. And when you're in second grade you don't care about the legality of an issue, you just want to get your recess.

The minute I found out I was legally within my rights to abstain, I never said the pledge. And I got dirty looks from everyone for not saying it. Hell, half the time I didn't stand up-- but for the last two years of home room I was forced to, and if I didn't I took a trip to the dean of students for being a trouble maker. It was never for being disrespectful or anything like that, but I was "trouble." Mind you, I was doing my homework. That's trouble right there, damn trig!

[conuly]

This is why the ACLU is a wonderful organization. Another thing many people don't realize when they're in school. And I'm guessing that you know how much people listen when you tell them they're breaking the law... I swear, the only way some people listen is if you sue!

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

Seriously! It was so aggravating when I said "I don't have to say the pledge."

"But you still have to show love for your country, and it's wrong to just sit down like that!"

"This is like telling a Hindi to say Grace."

"GO TO THE DEAN!"

It's not that I don't have any love for my country, it's just that: pledging the flag seems a lot like idol worship, it's creepy in a 1984 kind of way, and I'm lazy.

And, well, I don't like the way my country has entered its own little jihad.

[conuly]

1. A Hindu

2. What I love, and always have is this argument:

I can't say the Pledge, because I refuse to take an oath I may not be willing or able to uphold.

But it's not that important, just say it!

If it's not that important, surely you won't mind me sitting out?

NO! YOU HAVE TO SAY IT!

If it IS that important, then I really must decline. I will not make promises unless I know I can keep them.

But it doesn't really mean anything!

SO WHY DO YOU WANT ME TO SAY IT?

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

Hindu, for some reason my brain got caught up on Hindi and kerplutzed.

I absolutely love that argument, and almost wish I was in high school again just so I could use it.

[nightsea.livejournal.com]

Well, perhaps I misspoke then. As with many things, if we did have a choice, it was never given to us. I was never comfortable leading the pledge, but I still had to do it. In fact, if we forgot the words to the pledge or said the wrong words, we were scolded. I'm not denying that the law you stated exists, but I do find it sad that this is the first time I've ever heard of it. I was never notified of it, and neither was the rest of my class. *shrugs* That's the only part of the issue that bothers me - the lack of being informed.

Oh - and yes, I am a 'she.' *grins*

[conuly]

I know. You didn't misspeak, it just... really upsets me that people lie to children like that. In many cases, the adults know that they're doing something illegal, but they trust that nobody will ever bring a suit against them. In some cases, they just don't care. And, of course, in some it's a crime perpetuated by people who don't know any better. I'm not posting this because I'm upset, I'm posting it because 1. I'm right (and I hate being wrong, I'm just so conceited) and 2. I think it's something useful for people to know.

Besides, since I believe that many more people are actually ignorant of the law than are deliberately lying to children, I figure that a bit of an education will never go awry.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

I admit, when I was little I "had" to say the pledge. No one ever told me I didn't have to, and the teachers always got really angry when I didn't (I hated saying it, even then). So I equated not saying the pledge with getting in trouble. And when you're in second grade you don't care about the legality of an issue, you just want to get your recess.

The minute I found out I was legally within my rights to abstain, I never said the pledge. And I got dirty looks from everyone for not saying it. Hell, half the time I didn't stand up-- but for the last two years of home room I was forced to, and if I didn't I took a trip to the dean of students for being a trouble maker. It was never for being disrespectful or anything like that, but I was "trouble." Mind you, I was doing my homework. That's trouble right there, damn trig!

[conuly]

This is why the ACLU is a wonderful organization. Another thing many people don't realize when they're in school. And I'm guessing that you know how much people listen when you tell them they're breaking the law... I swear, the only way some people listen is if you sue!

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

Seriously! It was so aggravating when I said "I don't have to say the pledge."

"But you still have to show love for your country, and it's wrong to just sit down like that!"

"This is like telling a Hindi to say Grace."

"GO TO THE DEAN!"

It's not that I don't have any love for my country, it's just that: pledging the flag seems a lot like idol worship, it's creepy in a 1984 kind of way, and I'm lazy.

And, well, I don't like the way my country has entered its own little jihad.

[conuly]

1. A Hindu

2. What I love, and always have is this argument:

I can't say the Pledge, because I refuse to take an oath I may not be willing or able to uphold.

But it's not that important, just say it!

If it's not that important, surely you won't mind me sitting out?

NO! YOU HAVE TO SAY IT!

If it IS that important, then I really must decline. I will not make promises unless I know I can keep them.

But it doesn't really mean anything!

SO WHY DO YOU WANT ME TO SAY IT?

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

Hindu, for some reason my brain got caught up on Hindi and kerplutzed.

I absolutely love that argument, and almost wish I was in high school again just so I could use it.