I found out something new yesterday!

[conuly]

Apparently some languages (or at least one language, and that's Welsh) have a separate marker for some singular objects. That is, some nouns have the plural as their default and the singular is a suffix.

Isn't that cool?

Wikipedia compares this to English mass nouns, which reminds me. A while back I was checking up the etymology of asparagus and I found this whole discussion on what the plural of asparagus is. Sadly, I could not join in, because I wanted so much to point out that it doesn't have a plural, it's not a count noun. But that answer raises so many new questions, mostly "Why the heck can't you count asparagus?" It's not like water or air or even rice and sand. It's asparagus, so why can't I go "one asparagus, two asparaguses, three asparagi, four!" like potatoes? Or maybe other people can do that, but I find myself referring exclusively to bites or stalks or bunches of the stuff instead.

And for that matter, why broccoli? I can't have one broccoli, but I can have one head or stalk or bowl of broccoli. I can count cabbages but not broccoli? Something is broken in the English language here, guys!

Comments

[crystalpyramid]

one asparagus, two asparaguses, three asparagi, four!

I don't think English has a dual case like that, but it would be cool. (Russian and Greek do, I think!)

I don't know about broccoli, but I know that in Italian ravioli is a plural, so you can have one raviolo, and lots of ravioli. Lasagne is a plural (of presumably lasagna?). Broccoli might be like that, too. (One broccolo? Broccolus? Broccol?)

Having singular be marked and plural the default is indeed cool! I had no idea.

[conuly]

We don't have a dual plural, no, I was just exploring different pluralization options.

And yes, I really want one. Occasionally I rewrite English in my head and when I do I cut the plural in half, one for a small plural and one for a large plural. We DO have two existing plural markers anyway, I'd just repurpose the largely defunct -en for one of them.

I also add a fourth person, because, dude, how cool is that?

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Funny, now that you mention it - the same goes for German. (Well, we can't even count cabbages, so I guess at least we're a big more consistent... but still.) You'd have to say eine Stange Spargel - zwei Stangen Spargel ("one staff of asparagus - two staffs of asparagus"), or ein Kopf Kohl/Salat/Brokkoli - zwei Köpfe Kohl/Salat/Brokkoli ("one head of cabbage/lettuce/broccoli").

I think the problem with broccoli is that it's an Italian plural word in the first place, so singularising that would be... kind of hard? Don't ask me. (In Italian, a singular form - broccolo - exists, but that's just one stalk of florets: the whole head of broccoli is, well, broccoli. Perhaps that just doesn't come with a singular counter word.)

Sindarin shares that feature with Welsh - but then, of course, Tolkien used Welsh as an inspiration for Sindarin, so that isn't really all that surprising.

[conuly]

We don't generally use "staff" for vegetables in English, the word is more usually "stalk".

I think the problem with broccoli is that it's an Italian plural word in the first place, so singularising that would be... kind of hard? Don't ask me. (In Italian, a singular form - broccolo - exists, but that's just one stalk of florets: the whole head of broccoli is, well, broccoli. Perhaps that just doesn't come with a singular counter word.)

That sorta makes sense, but why don't people in English just say "Broccolis" and get it over with?

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

"Stalk" works as a translation for Stange as well. I just couldn't think of the word while writing the above entry... *shifty eyes*

Who knows? Start it and see if it catches ;)

[diatryma.livejournal.com]

Lettuce! Or rhubarb. Hm. This is actually a satisfying question. It makes me happy that it exists.

linguistics are nifty!

[queenlyzard.livejournal.com]

That is indeed very cool! I miss reading your blog....

I'm intrigued by words that are both mass nouns and count nouns, like sheep and fish (are all of those nouns also their own plurals? And are they all from the same source language?)

I agree that asparagus is generally counted in stalks, but I'm not sure why. Does that mean it's also a midnight predator, like celery?

Also, I have yet to try playing pick-up sticks with asparagus, but it works great with green beans...

[queenlyzard.livejournal.com]

I rather like staff-- it sounds very mystical. I think I've also heard "spears" of asparagus.

[conuly]

Oooh, you're right about spears, I'd forgotten that!

Re: linguistics are nifty!

[conuly]

I don't think sheep and fish ARE mass nouns, they're just count nouns without an inflected plural form. (Well, except fish CAN be "fishes", but you don't hear that often in Standard English.)

Does that mean it's also a midnight predator, like celery?

*snrk*