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conulyIf you pay attention at all to the parenting drama that goes on incessantly all over the internet, you know that sometimes little children (boys and girls alike!) pretend to breastfeed their dolls, and that sometimes people who don't breastfeed are totally squicked out by the very thought.
If you pay attention to discussion on child-raising that goes on incessantly EVERYwhere, you know that many people think that animals all do it by instinct, and that therefore humans should be able to do so as well. (This may or may not coincide with "don't give your child toys that train them to be mothers, are you a misogynist/do you want your son to be gay?" depending on the general tenor of the conversation, see "drama".)
Now, the part about animals doing it all instinctively is dead wrong, at least for mammals. I have personally seen what happens when cats kitten too young (I once had somebody wax poetic about why teenage motherhood shouldn't be the upsetting thing it often is to grandparents, because, "after all, nobody worries when their young cat gets pregnant", and quite aside from the fact that he's comparing teenagers literally to alleycats, anybody who's seen the fallout from an adolescent cat having kittens DOES worry), or when cats who were abandoned or mistreated by their mothers have them. And I've read the same old studies everybody else has about monkeys "raised" by wire mothers instead of real ones - the long term effect was monkeys that could not parent their babies. (Not to mention, human cultures, even "traditional" ones, all have varied ideas of ideal child-rearing. So... yeah.)
But to tie this into my first paragraph, yesterday I got to see an interesting sight.
See, Mama cat has long since weaned her kittens. She did it kinda abruptly, actually - instead of gradually letting them nurse for shorter and shorter periods of time, she just went straight to growling and hissing at them if they tried to suckle.
Naturally, despite it having been a month already, the kittens haven't given up. They still keep trying to tuck their heads under her legs! And they get swatted for the effort, too.
Yesterday I got to see three of the remaining four kittens enthusiastically cuddled down nursing on the fourth - a neutered male. His fur was sopping, and he even flopped over in that classic "Yup, milk for everybody!" position. His remaining brother outweighs him by a good pound and a half.
I've seen, in the past, a friendly and accommodating tom "babysitting" kittens to the point of letting them "nurse" off of him. (It's a myth that all toms hate and attack kittens. Cats really do have individual personalities.) However, I must say, this is the first time I've witnessed this among littermates!
Of course, humans aren't cats. But when you consider how many of these arguments back and forth are couched in terms of what is and isn't dubiously "natural", it's useful to have a perspective on what other mammals do. Cats, at least, can now be said to have been observed "pretending to breastfeed" in childhood. This may or may not help them be good parents (well, if they hadn't been fixed....) in adulthood. (No doubt other people have seen similar. I just never have until now.)
If you pay attention to discussion on child-raising that goes on incessantly EVERYwhere, you know that many people think that animals all do it by instinct, and that therefore humans should be able to do so as well. (This may or may not coincide with "don't give your child toys that train them to be mothers, are you a misogynist/do you want your son to be gay?" depending on the general tenor of the conversation, see "drama".)
Now, the part about animals doing it all instinctively is dead wrong, at least for mammals. I have personally seen what happens when cats kitten too young (I once had somebody wax poetic about why teenage motherhood shouldn't be the upsetting thing it often is to grandparents, because, "after all, nobody worries when their young cat gets pregnant", and quite aside from the fact that he's comparing teenagers literally to alleycats, anybody who's seen the fallout from an adolescent cat having kittens DOES worry), or when cats who were abandoned or mistreated by their mothers have them. And I've read the same old studies everybody else has about monkeys "raised" by wire mothers instead of real ones - the long term effect was monkeys that could not parent their babies. (Not to mention, human cultures, even "traditional" ones, all have varied ideas of ideal child-rearing. So... yeah.)
But to tie this into my first paragraph, yesterday I got to see an interesting sight.
See, Mama cat has long since weaned her kittens. She did it kinda abruptly, actually - instead of gradually letting them nurse for shorter and shorter periods of time, she just went straight to growling and hissing at them if they tried to suckle.
Naturally, despite it having been a month already, the kittens haven't given up. They still keep trying to tuck their heads under her legs! And they get swatted for the effort, too.
Yesterday I got to see three of the remaining four kittens enthusiastically cuddled down nursing on the fourth - a neutered male. His fur was sopping, and he even flopped over in that classic "Yup, milk for everybody!" position. His remaining brother outweighs him by a good pound and a half.
I've seen, in the past, a friendly and accommodating tom "babysitting" kittens to the point of letting them "nurse" off of him. (It's a myth that all toms hate and attack kittens. Cats really do have individual personalities.) However, I must say, this is the first time I've witnessed this among littermates!
Of course, humans aren't cats. But when you consider how many of these arguments back and forth are couched in terms of what is and isn't dubiously "natural", it's useful to have a perspective on what other mammals do. Cats, at least, can now be said to have been observed "pretending to breastfeed" in childhood. This may or may not help them be good parents (well, if they hadn't been fixed....) in adulthood. (No doubt other people have seen similar. I just never have until now.)
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no subject
Date: 2012-01-21 10:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-01-21 11:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-01-22 03:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-01-21 07:59 pm (UTC)Your kittens aren't 'pretending to breast-feed'. Sure, they're suckling on each other, because suckling feels good; there isn't any reason to assume that the behavior has a symbolic meaning to them. Children who stick their dolls under their shirts are consciously emulating adult parenting behavior, not reveling in the physical sensations.
It's hard to believe how squirrelly some people get over 'gendered' toys and clothing. Girls will grow up to drive, build and fix things; boys will grow up to cook, clean and care for children - obviously, the boys won't be breast-feeding, but they'll find that out, the same as they'll find out that the prettiest clothes are for girls only.
People with good sense don't let their young cats go out and get pregnant, but that's neither here nor there, because teenage girls aren't cats. By the time girls are old enough to get pregnant, either you've taught THEM to have the good sense to keep their knees together, or... you haven't, in which case Nature will probably take its course. Keeping them indoors or getting them spayed aren't usually options.
no subject
Date: 2012-01-21 08:04 pm (UTC)We can only hope.
However, the argument always seems to boil down to "Other animals don't do that!" which, aside from being totally pointless, is patently false. I have no idea what their motivations are, not being a cat, but clearly "that" is what they were "doing". (These people all also seem to think that breastfeeding is sexual and that therefore it's sexualizing children when those same kids, of their own volition, mimic Mommy breastfeeding. One wonders if they realize they realize that many children masturbate, without ever once seeing grown-ups doing this....)
If people will insist on making inane arguments, their arguments should at least be factually correct.
no subject
Date: 2012-01-21 11:16 pm (UTC)In all honesty, I wouldn't see any harm if they were sucking on each other like kittens, as long as it was their own private play. Obviously, the adult who discovers such play has to give the "Why this is not appropriate" talk and limit their time alone with each other, but it's hardly unnatural or unexpected, and there's nothing wrong with it per se - it's just inappropriate, not-done. Which means that those who insist on doing it need to have more discretion and find a more private place.
Seriously, though, there are a great many children who've seldom or never seen a baby fed with a bottle, but who see their Moms and Aunties breastfeeding, and their Mommies' friends, and their friends' Mommies - this is just how babies are fed; interesting, but not a big deal.
The debate about whether breat-feeding is 'sexual' is pretty silly. Is having a baby 'sexual'? What difference does it make? Yes, like most life-forms, we have sexual reproduction; like the other mammals we produce milk... it's hardly a secret, so why make a big Forbidden Mystery out of it?
Oh yeah, there was that whole thing about the garden with the snake and the forbidden fruit, right. If it wasn't for that, we wouldn't have all this breast-feeding to begin with.
no subject
Date: 2012-01-21 11:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-01-22 09:56 am (UTC)Ford Prefect had this to say:
"Your God person puts an apple tree in the middle of a garden and says do what you like guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise surprise, they eat it and he leaps out from behind a bush shouting `Gotcha'. It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it."
"Why not?"
"Because if you're dealing with somebody who has the sort of mentality which likes leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know perfectly well they won't give up. They'll get you in the end."
no subject
Date: 2012-01-21 10:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-01-22 01:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-01-22 02:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-01-22 02:48 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-01-22 04:04 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-01-22 04:37 am (UTC)