I am mean :(

[conuly]

Today we had special curriculum conferences (I found out why Meghan's mom wants to change schools, Jenn, btw - apparently everybody else in her kindergarten class got a different teacher this year) for first grade. Tomorrow I get to do the whole thing again for pre-k (where they sent me a very nice thank-you card for giving them lots of stuff. Aw.)

So we sat in cramped chairs and read a cramped handout about how the class is taught (and I stared for several minutes at a printed book - aka not something the teacher wrote herself) that contains the word "layed". I'm gonna have to write a note about that one), and I had just one thought - where the heck is the blackboard? Or the whiteboard, for that matter? I eventually asked, acknowledging it as a silly question - apparently they work without one in small groups. Okay, so far, so good, that makes sense to me.

And then another person brought up discipline, apparently there was some controversy last year over the rewards assemblies and all (this is a schoolwide thing, so no use bitching to the teacher about how catching children being good isn't good in the long run), and the teacher gave an example of how, you know, the first table to clean up during clean up time gets a star and a small prize. And she's got the word on the tip of her tongue... "This promotes... uh..."

Well, you know, let's digress a little. The other day in P101 somebody posted for warm fuzzies, and no less than three (3!) people commented that I, personally, used to annoy them, but I "grew on them". Three! Maybe more. I may very well decide to adopt that as my own personal motto: "I know I'm annoying now, but just wait, I'll grow on you." Think about it.

Back when I was a snarky, smart-aleck kid, I found a certain perverse pleasure in mildly disrupting things. (This is separate from the times I unintentionally mildly disrupted things and had no idea how it happened, but I'm not sure my teachers ever saw the distinction.) And now, sitting in the classroom, listening to the teacher grope for a word... I... I saw my chance and I jumped for it.

Teacher: And this promotes... uh...
Me: Competition?
Teacher: Right, competi- NO! NOT competition! NOoooooo. It doesn't.
Me: But it does!
Teacher: No, we say it promotes teamwork.
Me: Right, through competition.
Behind me: *muffled snickers*

Well, she may say it promotes teamwork, but if you can look at a situation where one group of kids gets a prize and all the rest of them don't, and say to me with a straight face that this isn't competition, we're clearly not reading the same dictionary.

And since I'd already done that, I decided to forge ahead and bring up the grape-scented marker thing anyway, because I doubt we're bestest buds now. *headdesk* But just wait - I'll grow on her! (In fairness, she's a perfectly nice person, and I'm sure a perfectly competent teacher. I really wasn't acting very nicely at all, but by the time I realized that I'd already opened my mouth.)

Comments

[ncp.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure quoting Alfie "let's not acknowledge any behavior" Kohn is going to prove your point.

Sorry, I just don't like his views. Rewarding positive behavior is damaging because then the kids work for the reward instead of the behavior itself. Punishments are damaging because then kids work to avoid punishment instead of the work itself. Don't praise. Don't berate. Don't ignore. Just love the kid and let them do whatever the heck they want without giving any feedback.

[conuly]

He never says not to give any feedback, rather, he says to give real feedback rather than scripted "That's good" and "that's bad" responses. Show an actual interest in what's going on, point out the results of what they've done in a non-judgmental way.

Likewise, having read just about every article up on his site, I've never once seen evidence that he says to let your kid do "whatever the heck they want". Rather, he says to work with your kid to find solutions that work for everyone - a skill we all need in the adult world.

You might try reading Understood Betsy one day. Dorothy Canfield Fisher wrote it in part to help promote (in a roundabout way) the Montessori method, but parts of it also apply directly to Alfie Kohn's writing in a very real sense.

[ncp.livejournal.com]

Bah. Takes to freaking long. :-)

Plus I tried to do that with my students (the old "if you keep talking we'll never learn anything and your fail the class") and it didn't work. But I think he's against the concept of grades as well; they're an "external incentive".

[conuly]

I think u were doin it rong.

At any rate, I'm not quoting anyone at anyone right now. I have my hands full enough with my current windmill.

[ncp.livejournal.com]

Well, clearly I was doing it wrong, because they STILL TALK IN CLASS!!! Although I am glad that I don't have you as one of the parents in my class. I have my hands full just dealing with 30 teenagers. :-)

[leora.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what to do about teens, but with fifth graders, I found that if you are teaching about sea life and you tell them about how some people boil the eyes of sharks to make "shark pearls" then a few of the boys in the class will shush their own classmates so that they can hear you speak.

Sadly, a trick that only works once per class.

[velasco.livejournal.com]

That's not mean of you, you hit the nail on the head with your comment. She can "say" that it promotes whatever she likes, when you give something to one group based on speed, thoroughness, etc, and exclude all the rest, that's going to promote competition. Teamwork would be to have the fast cleaners help the slow cleaners and reward based on total time, but that still has the potential to backfire, as the faster ones may harbor resentment at having to do "more", or in boot camp mentality devalue the people who aren't performing on par - even if they aren't old enough to count yet, kids have a highly fine-tuned sense of what's "fair" and who is getting a disproportionate amount.

A big problem in society today is the need to eliminate winners and losers, and how we haven't yet agreed on how best to do that. Or, for some people, whether we should do that at all - after all, if everybody is a winner, doesn't that mean everybody loses too? We're based on and have evolved with the concept that there is a "better than" and for the vast majority of our society's development the rewards have gone to the winners. Regardless of whether you believe in creationism, darwinism or flying spaghetti monsters or whatnot, in all cases there have been favored races, species, traits or tasty sauces that had advantages over their counterparts, and while that competition DID result in oppression and extinction and other things harmful to the losing side, it's also how progress was made - trying to beat the other guy. I don't think competition is necessarily a bad thing. When you have one side that's perpetually on the losing end, though, that's when it starts to be damaging.

[conuly]

Well, I knew I was right, I try to avoid saying things that aren't right :P But maaaaaaybe I could've held it in until later. Maybe. (Maybe I was so distracted by the misspelling in a printed text! that I couldn't help myself.)

[velasco.livejournal.com]

I hate typos in general but I hate them so much more on things that are, y'know, supposed to be edited first? XD Ask tham, our our friends, or any of my college classmates, I think I'm hypersensitive to spelling errors and get bothered by them, I'm glad I'm not the only one. :)

(I don't think anything beats what I found while idly reading the sticker on a banana one time - "5-A-Day Fruits and Vegetagles")

[gingembre.livejournal.com]

Wait I don't understand - is it that Meghan is not in class with her friends from last year? And thus how exactly would moving to a new school help that??

[conuly]

I don't know. I'm sure there's more to it than that, but I'd guess she feels she wasn't being listened to.

[sayga.livejournal.com]

I was glad when all those people said they liked you. I always like you a lot. You didn't even have to grow on me. I think you see through the bullshit and give a straight answer. A lot of people don't LIKE hearing the real answer. Sometimes I don't like hearing the real answer but after stepping back for a minute I realize that real answers are usually more helpful than pretend answers, and if I'm annoyed by an answer, it's probably because I realize it's even truer than most true answers... Hope that made sense, I'm about to go home sick, so sorry if that was just bizarre.

[conuly]

Ooh, check out Elan's (blond guy's) comment here: People tell me things are complicated when they won't like what they'll hear if they tell me out loud.

I ♥ Elan :)

[sayga.livejournal.com]

Yes! That's it exactly. Haha.

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

Our third-grade teacher used to make us applaud the first one done, who was invariably the same girl. Doing things perfectly did not count; doing them perfectly and fast, with exquisite handwriting, did.

[marveen.livejournal.com]

I clicked on the link and I'm still reading, but one passage made me go O.o....namely, this one:

But if people steal or rape or kill solely because they possess bad values -- that is, because of their personal characteristics -- the implication is that political and economic realities are irrelevant and need not be addressed. Never mind staggering levels of unemployment in the inner cities or a system in which more and more of the nation's wealth is concentrated in fewer and fewer hands; just place the blame on individuals whose characters are deficient.

So rape and murder are due to staggering levels of unemployment and/or the unequal distribution of wealth? I'm unconvinced.

Reading on, I also wonder what his basis for "moral" behavior is, anyway. Of course he flatly rejects religious bases as models, but from a philosophical standpoint, if there's no "higher" accountability, doesn't that leave us with the "just don't get caught" level of external conscience as the only guide to personal morality?

These may be deeper and murkier waters than either of us want to navigate right now, so feel free to pass by on t'other side of t'road. :)

No you're not :)

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

You're not mean, you were absolutely right. I'm opposed to all competitive games and contests organized or promoted by adults for children. If children want to compete among themselves on their own, that's okay, but it's not something to encourage, either. Certainly we could have exhibitions and performances rather than competitions, without scores or prizes - the Olympic events would be just as cool without the medals.

The idea of catch children being good was originally the very sensible advice to pay attention to them when they're being helpful and cooperative rather than only noticing when they're being butts, and to reinforce behavior you want repeated.

The way to reinforce childrens' good behavior is: smile at them, thank them, tell them you're proud of them, appreciate their work and listen to what they have to tell you about it.

The way to let them know what behavior you expect from them is to just tell them, clearly and politely, explain the reasons for the expectation to the level of their understanding, and be prepared to negotiate about any reasonable objections. Also be prepared to give frequent polite reminders about your expectations whenever they seem to have slipped the kid's mind, as sometimes happens.

The way to get them to want to fulfill your expectations about helpfulness and cooperation, thus to gain valuable smiles and thanks, is to be kind, helpful, patient, fair and courteous yourself, so that they love and admire you, and want to make you proud of them.

In other words, the only way to instill good character values in children is to have them yourself, and model them in such a way that the kids decide they're worth acquiring. All that idiocy with prizes and stickers and privileges, the whole behavior-mod token economy bullshit, does nothing but foster resentment, cynicism and timeserving.

Re: No you're not :)

[conuly]

All that idiocy with prizes and stickers and privileges, the whole behavior-mod token economy bullshit, does nothing but foster resentment, cynicism and timeserving.

I thought it was just distasteful because it's hypocritical and mercenary, tell the truth. But yeah - it's like their book logs. Aside from being a hassle, it's basically making reading this CHORE that they have to GET OUT OF THE WAY. Ugh.