This sort of thing pisses me off.

[conuly]

Two children is not a statistically relevant sample.

Two children is anecdotal evidence taken to terrifying extremes.

So the boy happens to be less dainty than the girl. Even if we could say there aren't any differences in how they're treated (yeah, right), it's two children. What can you extrapolate from two?

Nothing, that's what.

But this person is saying that "based on what I saw today"....

What she saw today is two children, raised in two different families, behaving like two different children. Wow. And there's no guarantee that this is all she saw - maybe she missed parts where they didn't act in stereotyped ways, because this wasn't as noticeable to her.

(And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why anecdotal evidence is evil and wrong and should be abolished.)

Comments

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

She didn't hold it out as fact though, just pointed out what she observed, and wondered about it.

Besides not everything can be studied, or is studied. So people comparing notes can be valid. Like if I compared notes with another mom to figure out how to get T. to quit SPITTING. Maybe she didnt study spitting but if she has a good idea, well, I'm gonna try it!

(BTW my children seemed to act very much like mentioned in that st ory, yes I know it means nothing, but it is funny because I tried so hard, at first, to be 'gender neutral'. Now I don't care.)

[conuly]

What do you mean not everything can be studied? Of course it can!

And studies on gender differences *can* be studied, and *have* been studied, and *will* be studied for a long time to come. Studies on spitting, probably not - but it could be studied.

And she didn't "wonder about it". She said "based on what I saw today, I'm inclined to believe in innate gender differences". She made an opinion based on one observation of two children. Then she went and asked about it, but only after she's already made up her mind. How many other things has she done this for?

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

Ok, not everything will be studied, not in our lifetime, and perhaps not as extensively as it could/should be (think heart studies on women).

I think you are reading too much into what she wrote. She pondered it, and felt a certain way. And I know they've done lots of studies about it, too. It's not like she wrote a paper and presented it as True Fact, just that she felt a certain way, believed a certain way, because of what she saw.

I believe in a Higher Power, a Diety, but I know I can't prove it. I do believe that gender influences behavior, even if I havent read every study on it. Doesn't really matter much, I'm not putting myself out as an expert, and what I believe about both doesn't really matter in the big picture.

And really what other things could she have done this for that would have really made a huge difference in the world? And what if you have learned over the years that your beliefs and instincts bear out, even without big fancy researchers backing you? (Or backing you one day and not another, as happens so often.) You can't live by studies alone, you have to make day to day decisions and you cant research everything. Or sometimes you have to throw research to the wind. Sometimes you have to do what works, and sometimes you just have to call em like you see em.

[conuly]

It makes a difference in *her* world.

And it's really not this specific person. It's everytime - people ask for advice, and instead of getting facts, they get opinions presented as fact. Or, worse, they get illogic presented as logic, and it's not. I want this brand of illogic wiped out once and for all, because it impairs clear thought, and is just plain annoying.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

I am also amused by how I am using instinct and anecdoctal evidence to decide what she means! You could probably give me all sorts of reasons to why she didnt write it/think it properly, and I'm just going to take it as 'eh, she was pondering things and just got a feeling about stuff and probably isnt thinking about it much after that'. Im just basing it on what Ive seen people act like and how I would, too...how a lot of my journal is just tossing up ideas that may or may not be relavent or matter 30 seconds after i hit post.

[conuly]

And yes, I could and would if I were less lazy.

You say we can't live by studies alone, and I'm going "Right. PROVE IT." because I don't believe in doing much of anything without reading some research - or doing real research in my own time. I know my perceptions are bound to be biased, everybody's are. Even those studies. But by reading a lot of studies, I hope to move past a bit of bias.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

I read a lot so it's hard to tell how much is instinct and how much is knowing...but I do question things I did, like cosleeping, which just meant it has been harder for all concerned to get a good nights sleep, and breastfeeding, which was an odd thing because I felt guilty when I couldnt, then felt guilty when he dropped too much weight, and then guilty when he wouldnt talk thinking if he had magical booju he would be 'fine', and now had I known that he had this whole oral sensory thing I would have been able to ignore all the BFing stuff that had me second guess everything I did and instead worked with what the real issue was. It was the case that I only knew about one thing and not another and never would have realized there were more studies/things to read. And even then, FINDING the stuff is hard! Like finding out how the heck to get T to stop SPITTING. Or sibling rivalry. Or, I dunno, homeschooling versus the schools. It's information overload, sometimes.

[conuly]

No point questioning the past, not unless you have access to a time machine. Ever onwards, that's what I often say!

We're different people, I think - I don't overload on information, I need it to feel secure.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

Na I need it too but I kind of had to learn to let go because of inactivity and overload.

And I think what I meant is my guild over the BFing thingy is also guilt that 'hey my kid starved and i shoulda gave up sooner but I iddnt know'.

Wait till you see me make an electronic purchase or something, eh?

[rho]

You know, whenever I plot two points on a graph, they always seem to fall perfectly and exactly on a stright line. Odd, that.

[conuly]

Wow. EVERY time?

[leora.livejournal.com]

I dunno... my sister has two children.

The elder is very attentive to warnings about what is and isn't safe. The child is fairly sensitive to physical pain. The child is very dutiful about cleaning up. The child loves to read.

The younger is very physical and carefree. The child loves to play in the snow. The child loves animals, whereas the elder isn't really into them. The child displays very little fear, and has often not complained of pain in what was found to be reasonable situations. For example, the elder complained of an earache, and was found to have an ear infection. So, the younger was checked too, who hadn't been complaining, but was found to have a more severe ear infection.

On the other hand, the elder loves science and fossils. The child has "poison lab". The child often roughhouses.

The younger also has acted quite shy at times when in social situations.

And, of course, they're both male.

Thus, I conclude that kids are different.

[elfster.livejournal.com]

It's funny, with me and my twin brother I was the "boyish" one and he was the "girlish" one.

[sayga.livejournal.com]

i think you're on to something when you say she might've missed when they DIDN'T act in stereotypical ways. she was looking for expectations, and she found them. when i'm looking for kira to be girly, i notice how she hyperventilates when i take her in a shoe store, how she will carry a purse around for hours, she loves picking and smelling flowers, and how she is only 2 but comments on other people's clothes that she likes (she said to her 2 year old cousin "ooh, nice shirt!"). but when i want to see her as tomboyish, i notice that she'd rather hike or go for a walk than stay inside, she begs to go outside to look for bugs, she collects rocks and sticks, and loves playing in the sand.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

She didn't hold it out as fact though, just pointed out what she observed, and wondered about it.

Besides not everything can be studied, or is studied. So people comparing notes can be valid. Like if I compared notes with another mom to figure out how to get T. to quit SPITTING. Maybe she didnt study spitting but if she has a good idea, well, I'm gonna try it!

(BTW my children seemed to act very much like mentioned in that st ory, yes I know it means nothing, but it is funny because I tried so hard, at first, to be 'gender neutral'. Now I don't care.)

[conuly]

What do you mean not everything can be studied? Of course it can!

And studies on gender differences *can* be studied, and *have* been studied, and *will* be studied for a long time to come. Studies on spitting, probably not - but it could be studied.

And she didn't "wonder about it". She said "based on what I saw today, I'm inclined to believe in innate gender differences". She made an opinion based on one observation of two children. Then she went and asked about it, but only after she's already made up her mind. How many other things has she done this for?

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

Ok, not everything will be studied, not in our lifetime, and perhaps not as extensively as it could/should be (think heart studies on women).

I think you are reading too much into what she wrote. She pondered it, and felt a certain way. And I know they've done lots of studies about it, too. It's not like she wrote a paper and presented it as True Fact, just that she felt a certain way, believed a certain way, because of what she saw.

I believe in a Higher Power, a Diety, but I know I can't prove it. I do believe that gender influences behavior, even if I havent read every study on it. Doesn't really matter much, I'm not putting myself out as an expert, and what I believe about both doesn't really matter in the big picture.

And really what other things could she have done this for that would have really made a huge difference in the world? And what if you have learned over the years that your beliefs and instincts bear out, even without big fancy researchers backing you? (Or backing you one day and not another, as happens so often.) You can't live by studies alone, you have to make day to day decisions and you cant research everything. Or sometimes you have to throw research to the wind. Sometimes you have to do what works, and sometimes you just have to call em like you see em.

[conuly]

It makes a difference in *her* world.

And it's really not this specific person. It's everytime - people ask for advice, and instead of getting facts, they get opinions presented as fact. Or, worse, they get illogic presented as logic, and it's not. I want this brand of illogic wiped out once and for all, because it impairs clear thought, and is just plain annoying.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

I am also amused by how I am using instinct and anecdoctal evidence to decide what she means! You could probably give me all sorts of reasons to why she didnt write it/think it properly, and I'm just going to take it as 'eh, she was pondering things and just got a feeling about stuff and probably isnt thinking about it much after that'. Im just basing it on what Ive seen people act like and how I would, too...how a lot of my journal is just tossing up ideas that may or may not be relavent or matter 30 seconds after i hit post.

[conuly]

And yes, I could and would if I were less lazy.

You say we can't live by studies alone, and I'm going "Right. PROVE IT." because I don't believe in doing much of anything without reading some research - or doing real research in my own time. I know my perceptions are bound to be biased, everybody's are. Even those studies. But by reading a lot of studies, I hope to move past a bit of bias.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

I read a lot so it's hard to tell how much is instinct and how much is knowing...but I do question things I did, like cosleeping, which just meant it has been harder for all concerned to get a good nights sleep, and breastfeeding, which was an odd thing because I felt guilty when I couldnt, then felt guilty when he dropped too much weight, and then guilty when he wouldnt talk thinking if he had magical booju he would be 'fine', and now had I known that he had this whole oral sensory thing I would have been able to ignore all the BFing stuff that had me second guess everything I did and instead worked with what the real issue was. It was the case that I only knew about one thing and not another and never would have realized there were more studies/things to read. And even then, FINDING the stuff is hard! Like finding out how the heck to get T to stop SPITTING. Or sibling rivalry. Or, I dunno, homeschooling versus the schools. It's information overload, sometimes.

[conuly]

No point questioning the past, not unless you have access to a time machine. Ever onwards, that's what I often say!

We're different people, I think - I don't overload on information, I need it to feel secure.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

Na I need it too but I kind of had to learn to let go because of inactivity and overload.

And I think what I meant is my guild over the BFing thingy is also guilt that 'hey my kid starved and i shoulda gave up sooner but I iddnt know'.

Wait till you see me make an electronic purchase or something, eh?

[rho]

You know, whenever I plot two points on a graph, they always seem to fall perfectly and exactly on a stright line. Odd, that.

[conuly]

Wow. EVERY time?

[leora.livejournal.com]

I dunno... my sister has two children.

The elder is very attentive to warnings about what is and isn't safe. The child is fairly sensitive to physical pain. The child is very dutiful about cleaning up. The child loves to read.

The younger is very physical and carefree. The child loves to play in the snow. The child loves animals, whereas the elder isn't really into them. The child displays very little fear, and has often not complained of pain in what was found to be reasonable situations. For example, the elder complained of an earache, and was found to have an ear infection. So, the younger was checked too, who hadn't been complaining, but was found to have a more severe ear infection.

On the other hand, the elder loves science and fossils. The child has "poison lab". The child often roughhouses.

The younger also has acted quite shy at times when in social situations.

And, of course, they're both male.

Thus, I conclude that kids are different.

[elfster.livejournal.com]

It's funny, with me and my twin brother I was the "boyish" one and he was the "girlish" one.

[sayga.livejournal.com]

i think you're on to something when you say she might've missed when they DIDN'T act in stereotypical ways. she was looking for expectations, and she found them. when i'm looking for kira to be girly, i notice how she hyperventilates when i take her in a shoe store, how she will carry a purse around for hours, she loves picking and smelling flowers, and how she is only 2 but comments on other people's clothes that she likes (she said to her 2 year old cousin "ooh, nice shirt!"). but when i want to see her as tomboyish, i notice that she'd rather hike or go for a walk than stay inside, she begs to go outside to look for bugs, she collects rocks and sticks, and loves playing in the sand.