conuly

My children aren't angels, nor are they brats. They're normally-behaved. We try with manners, mostly it works.

That said, I still regret not yelling back at a customer who yelled at me because Colin was having a meltdown.

From:

conuly

Would that have done any good? I doubt it would have helped Colin, and I'm fairly certain it would not have helped that customer learn good manners.

From:

Nope, it wouldn't have done any good at all to or for anyone.

Most of my regret in that is that she wouldn't shut up, and I was angry/upset/afraid/sad enough that I let some of that frustration out on Colin, who was a very undeserving target for it. He forgave me for it, but I will always know that I screwed up by that.

From:

conuly

At least somebody learned something, then. That's good, right?

I'm trying really hard to argue by keeping my voice low. Not only does this serve to stop me from getting too far out of line (I believe), but it seems to shut other people up a lot faster. Like teachers who whisper to make their classes quiet down, I guess.

From:

ex-chaos-by-699.livejournal.com

Generally, I find children in public to be bloody irritating. I suspect I just don't like children.

From:

conuly

Not much I can say here, but I'll try...

Ahem.

"Sucks for you, then, because kids seem to be everywhere. Even I think that, and I *like* most children (or at least give them the benefit of the doubt when I don't)!"

From:

I think it's a combination of children who are not being taught to behave or removed when they misbehave and people having unreasonable expectations. I see both happen way too often.

An example of each:

I was at the waiting room for a clinic. Now, people who use it tend to be poor, and getting childcare for a toddler may simply be a non-option. And you can't exactly decide to just not get medical care. The toddler was being clearly bored and wanted to run around. The mother was telling her not to, and sometimes bouncing her on the knee, during which she was quiet. But then the mother would stop, she'd get bored, and start squirming around.

Someone responded saying that she looked like she needed a tanning.

This is insane. She's a toddler and she's bored. She's not massively misbehaving, and she's too young to be expected to sit still and do nothing at all for extended periods of time.

Another example:
I was at a high school graduation. Deadly boring, I admit. The child (maybe around age 7) behind someone I was with repeatedly kicked the seat in front of him. He was asked to stop and informed that it hurt, and he kept kicking the seat.

This is also unacceptable. Your child is physically assaulting a stranger. You need to find a way to stop it, whether it means admonishing the child or removing the child from the situation. You may not let your child physically harm others, no matter how young the kid is. And the kid was really old enough to stop anyway. If there was some disability, then remove the kid, but nothing gives you a free pass to attack others.

On the other hand, I also see well-behaved children and good parenting. It's not like every kid is a total brat. And the comment about this not being a problem 25 years ago is laughable. I remember 22 years ago it being a very public problem. I suspect it has been for a long time, because there are always people who are stupid about children.

And I am all for removing both rowdy children and rowdy adults from situations.

From:

conuly

Totally agreed. Why do you write such good comments? It's unfair to most of us.

From:

Because I never shut up, so some of it is bound to be good.

From:

conuly

*grins*

Most of it is. I always look forward to your comments, but they can be a bit hard to reply to!

From:

I was in a waiting room once where there was this little girl who kept going "Yang-yang-yang-yang." I didn't mind at all. What bothered me was when her mother got mad and tried to shush her and then she'd start to cry. I felt like saying "Let her yang-yang-yang all she wants! I'd MUCH rather hear "yang-yang-yang" then "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!" Waiting rooms are the WORST place for encountering crying babies and toddlers. I tend to put my walkman on as soon as a stoller or baby basket appears wherever I am because I have sensory issues, but unless soeone is with me I can't wear a walkman in a waiting room because I can't hear when I am being called.

From:

haha, to yang-yang-yang. my daughter shouts "Echo!" everytime we walk into a public restroom. She'll continue to shout it the whole time we're in there. Luckily people tend to think it's funny, rather than annoying.

From:

LOL! That's adorable! :)

From:

jedirita.livejournal.com

The problem with these kinds of "discussions" is that it's all based on anecdotal evidence, and of course who are the kids that get noticed? The obnoxious ones! Furthermore, most people acknowledge that it's not quite fair to blame kids for being kids, so instead they choose an easier target: the parents. I loved in the comments how people somehow seemed to know that the parents who fail to discipline the kids are the same ones who speed through parking lots and talk on their cell phones all the time. It's extremely eay to get self-righteous about other people's behavior.

ON the other hand, the well-behaved kids don't get noticed, precisely because they're so well-behaved. So I'll tell you about a meeting I went to last night. The city council is going around holding budget hearings, and there was this boy about 7 or 8 years old sitting behind me. He was quite as a mouse throughout the entire hour-and-a-half long meeting. That's certainly the kind of event many people would consider to be inappropriate for kids, but he was perfectly well-behaved. There was indeed someone there who was very ill-mannered, kept talking and commenting all the time and mildly disrupting the event -- but he was an adult!

From:

sparkofcreation.livejournal.com

I don't know if that's true. I see kids all the time (at church, at work, my coworkers' kids at work picnics, out at the mall or the store or the zoo or whatever), and I think I generally notice them. And certainly most of them are well-behaved. But I still think far too many parents have a sense of entitlement that they shouldn't have to give up going to fancy restaurants or R movies or weekend-long church retreats* just because they have children.

*I'm slightly bitter because my church hosted a young-adults retreat and we said we were unable to provide childcare because a condition the church imposed on those of us hosting the retreat was that any children had to be within sight distance of two adults at all times [for up to five kids, plus one additional adult per five additional children—standard church policy] and we couldn't find two responsible, experienced adults times thirty-six hours. Someone called us all sorts of names on our message board that we use to communicate with the group, then brought her kids anyway (they didn't destroy anything, generally spent the weekend running around and being kids). Of course, if anyone from the church administration had come by and found out, our group would have been forbidden from ever using the church facilities again, but what did she care? Her children were more important than a silly thing like allowing us to keep our charter.

From:

thornleaf.livejournal.com

I've seen plenty of parents who seem to ignore the poor behaviour of their children, but I've seen plenty of parents who don't, and who correct their children's poor behaviour.

The trouble is, the good kids are much more easily forgotten than the bad ones - the bad ones always stand out, and the way memory works, they seem to be the majority, even when they're not.

*shrugs*

New icon, though, thanks to you! Woohoo! Thanks for the links. :)

From:

failstoexist.livejournal.com

I see lots and lots of kids every day. And I'm in a place where kids are expected to be kids-they're fairly free. they're allowed to touch nearly everything, play, get messy, and even be loud. But the shrieking...it hurts my ears. I absolutely hate parents who let their kids shriek. even screaming/yelling doesn't matter so much-but that high pitched noise is terrible. I wish parents would stop their kids from doing that.

it's in other situations that I think kids need a bit of work. When my cousin is out at a restaurant, she may speak quietly or at least in a normal voice, color, play with stickers, and sit on her knees. She may not scream or yell, turn around to bother other diners, stand up on the seat, or crawl around under the table. If she does those things, we will tell her to stop, and if she does not stop, she will be taken outside to be spoken to...if she can't stop after that, we're going home.

But I would not bring her to a place that I didn't think was appropriate for her. we go out for pizza, but not to a 5 star restaurant. I would *never* take her on a commuter train, because people(including me) expect a certain level of quiet. I would take her on a subway, though, if we were in the city. I would not take her to a movie at this age, I would not take her anywhere that she couldn't behave-and I give her warnings about what will be expected of her. So it upsets me when I go out to have a grownup good time, and I have to deal with kids who don't know how to behave.

I'm the one who compliments people on their kids' behaviour when we're out. I love kids, and if they behave well(even if they do lean over to bug me, if i tell the parents it's OK, i don't mind) then I'm cool with them being there. But if they're running all over the restaurant or shrieking, I think they should be removed from the situation.

From:

I think it's mostly the parents. Sometimes you get a really unruly kid that doesn't respond to discipline (like my neighbor who has 2 really sweet and well-behaved boys, and one who does things you told him not to on purpose), but I think usually it's the parents who let their kids do whatever. I've been at the store and watched parents let their kids make a huge scene, but as soon as they realize *EVERYONE IS LOOKING AT THEM* they try to discipline their kid. you can tell the kid is going, "what the hell? mom's never done this before!"

those message board comments about strangers telling off the kid and the parent yelling at the stranger make me mad. if kira behaved badly and i wasn't around to see it, i would want someone to tell her off. it would probably be a stronger impression on her than if i made her apologize.

when we go out in public, we constantly get remarks from strangers about how and well-behaved Kira is. it's very nice. i hope we get as lucky with #2.

From:

conuly

if kira behaved badly and i wasn't around to see it, i would want someone to tell her off. it would probably be a stronger impression on her than if i made her apologize.

Totally agreed. I tend to find that the people who get really upset over you telling their kids off for real rudeness or (and this is where I don't even feel even slightly bad) dangerous behaviour, their kids do whatever the fuck they want because *nobody* tells them no.

From:

My children aren't angels, nor are they brats. They're normally-behaved. We try with manners, mostly it works.

That said, I still regret not yelling back at a customer who yelled at me because Colin was having a meltdown.

From:

conuly

Would that have done any good? I doubt it would have helped Colin, and I'm fairly certain it would not have helped that customer learn good manners.

From:

Nope, it wouldn't have done any good at all to or for anyone.

Most of my regret in that is that she wouldn't shut up, and I was angry/upset/afraid/sad enough that I let some of that frustration out on Colin, who was a very undeserving target for it. He forgave me for it, but I will always know that I screwed up by that.

From:

conuly

At least somebody learned something, then. That's good, right?

I'm trying really hard to argue by keeping my voice low. Not only does this serve to stop me from getting too far out of line (I believe), but it seems to shut other people up a lot faster. Like teachers who whisper to make their classes quiet down, I guess.

From:

ex-chaos-by-699.livejournal.com

Generally, I find children in public to be bloody irritating. I suspect I just don't like children.

From:

conuly

Not much I can say here, but I'll try...

Ahem.

"Sucks for you, then, because kids seem to be everywhere. Even I think that, and I *like* most children (or at least give them the benefit of the doubt when I don't)!"

From:

I think it's a combination of children who are not being taught to behave or removed when they misbehave and people having unreasonable expectations. I see both happen way too often.

An example of each:

I was at the waiting room for a clinic. Now, people who use it tend to be poor, and getting childcare for a toddler may simply be a non-option. And you can't exactly decide to just not get medical care. The toddler was being clearly bored and wanted to run around. The mother was telling her not to, and sometimes bouncing her on the knee, during which she was quiet. But then the mother would stop, she'd get bored, and start squirming around.

Someone responded saying that she looked like she needed a tanning.

This is insane. She's a toddler and she's bored. She's not massively misbehaving, and she's too young to be expected to sit still and do nothing at all for extended periods of time.

Another example:
I was at a high school graduation. Deadly boring, I admit. The child (maybe around age 7) behind someone I was with repeatedly kicked the seat in front of him. He was asked to stop and informed that it hurt, and he kept kicking the seat.

This is also unacceptable. Your child is physically assaulting a stranger. You need to find a way to stop it, whether it means admonishing the child or removing the child from the situation. You may not let your child physically harm others, no matter how young the kid is. And the kid was really old enough to stop anyway. If there was some disability, then remove the kid, but nothing gives you a free pass to attack others.

On the other hand, I also see well-behaved children and good parenting. It's not like every kid is a total brat. And the comment about this not being a problem 25 years ago is laughable. I remember 22 years ago it being a very public problem. I suspect it has been for a long time, because there are always people who are stupid about children.

And I am all for removing both rowdy children and rowdy adults from situations.

From:

conuly

Totally agreed. Why do you write such good comments? It's unfair to most of us.

From:

Because I never shut up, so some of it is bound to be good.

From:

conuly

*grins*

Most of it is. I always look forward to your comments, but they can be a bit hard to reply to!

From:

I was in a waiting room once where there was this little girl who kept going "Yang-yang-yang-yang." I didn't mind at all. What bothered me was when her mother got mad and tried to shush her and then she'd start to cry. I felt like saying "Let her yang-yang-yang all she wants! I'd MUCH rather hear "yang-yang-yang" then "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!" Waiting rooms are the WORST place for encountering crying babies and toddlers. I tend to put my walkman on as soon as a stoller or baby basket appears wherever I am because I have sensory issues, but unless soeone is with me I can't wear a walkman in a waiting room because I can't hear when I am being called.

From:

haha, to yang-yang-yang. my daughter shouts "Echo!" everytime we walk into a public restroom. She'll continue to shout it the whole time we're in there. Luckily people tend to think it's funny, rather than annoying.

From:

LOL! That's adorable! :)

From:

jedirita.livejournal.com

The problem with these kinds of "discussions" is that it's all based on anecdotal evidence, and of course who are the kids that get noticed? The obnoxious ones! Furthermore, most people acknowledge that it's not quite fair to blame kids for being kids, so instead they choose an easier target: the parents. I loved in the comments how people somehow seemed to know that the parents who fail to discipline the kids are the same ones who speed through parking lots and talk on their cell phones all the time. It's extremely eay to get self-righteous about other people's behavior.

ON the other hand, the well-behaved kids don't get noticed, precisely because they're so well-behaved. So I'll tell you about a meeting I went to last night. The city council is going around holding budget hearings, and there was this boy about 7 or 8 years old sitting behind me. He was quite as a mouse throughout the entire hour-and-a-half long meeting. That's certainly the kind of event many people would consider to be inappropriate for kids, but he was perfectly well-behaved. There was indeed someone there who was very ill-mannered, kept talking and commenting all the time and mildly disrupting the event -- but he was an adult!

From:

sparkofcreation.livejournal.com

I don't know if that's true. I see kids all the time (at church, at work, my coworkers' kids at work picnics, out at the mall or the store or the zoo or whatever), and I think I generally notice them. And certainly most of them are well-behaved. But I still think far too many parents have a sense of entitlement that they shouldn't have to give up going to fancy restaurants or R movies or weekend-long church retreats* just because they have children.

*I'm slightly bitter because my church hosted a young-adults retreat and we said we were unable to provide childcare because a condition the church imposed on those of us hosting the retreat was that any children had to be within sight distance of two adults at all times [for up to five kids, plus one additional adult per five additional children—standard church policy] and we couldn't find two responsible, experienced adults times thirty-six hours. Someone called us all sorts of names on our message board that we use to communicate with the group, then brought her kids anyway (they didn't destroy anything, generally spent the weekend running around and being kids). Of course, if anyone from the church administration had come by and found out, our group would have been forbidden from ever using the church facilities again, but what did she care? Her children were more important than a silly thing like allowing us to keep our charter.

From:

thornleaf.livejournal.com

I've seen plenty of parents who seem to ignore the poor behaviour of their children, but I've seen plenty of parents who don't, and who correct their children's poor behaviour.

The trouble is, the good kids are much more easily forgotten than the bad ones - the bad ones always stand out, and the way memory works, they seem to be the majority, even when they're not.

*shrugs*

New icon, though, thanks to you! Woohoo! Thanks for the links. :)

From:

failstoexist.livejournal.com

I see lots and lots of kids every day. And I'm in a place where kids are expected to be kids-they're fairly free. they're allowed to touch nearly everything, play, get messy, and even be loud. But the shrieking...it hurts my ears. I absolutely hate parents who let their kids shriek. even screaming/yelling doesn't matter so much-but that high pitched noise is terrible. I wish parents would stop their kids from doing that.

it's in other situations that I think kids need a bit of work. When my cousin is out at a restaurant, she may speak quietly or at least in a normal voice, color, play with stickers, and sit on her knees. She may not scream or yell, turn around to bother other diners, stand up on the seat, or crawl around under the table. If she does those things, we will tell her to stop, and if she does not stop, she will be taken outside to be spoken to...if she can't stop after that, we're going home.

But I would not bring her to a place that I didn't think was appropriate for her. we go out for pizza, but not to a 5 star restaurant. I would *never* take her on a commuter train, because people(including me) expect a certain level of quiet. I would take her on a subway, though, if we were in the city. I would not take her to a movie at this age, I would not take her anywhere that she couldn't behave-and I give her warnings about what will be expected of her. So it upsets me when I go out to have a grownup good time, and I have to deal with kids who don't know how to behave.

I'm the one who compliments people on their kids' behaviour when we're out. I love kids, and if they behave well(even if they do lean over to bug me, if i tell the parents it's OK, i don't mind) then I'm cool with them being there. But if they're running all over the restaurant or shrieking, I think they should be removed from the situation.

From: