conuly

To be perfectly clear here, I like the person I'm currently irked at, so nobody claim I don't.

We're having a conversation about (I think) animal rights, and she made the point that "It seems that there's one rule for us [humans], and another for everything else", to which I replied that it seems that way because it is that way, possibly because most people consider other animals to be less intelligent than humans. So far, so good.

But if thats true, that intelligence equals rights, then how about a retarded child? One could argue that they aren't as intelligent as other people, yet they still have the same rights

Well, sadly, that's not always true. It's certainly not true in the minds of many people, we can all think of a few cases where a child was killed because of some perceived defect and the killer wasn't punished as severely as they would have been otherwise. I'm not even sure it really is true legally, think of all the cases where people die in restraints....

She never replied to that comment, possibly because somebody else brought up the soul thing (side note, what is a soul? Can somebody please explain this so I can die happy?). Her response to that statement was that "If we have souls, then animals must too, since we're animals!"

I'm not so sure that's true, and I said that, pointing out that humans have opposable thumbs (and most animals don't) and that humans have language. This is where the issue gets confused, my exact words were:

Since we have language, so must other animals! I'm not tackling this except to say that language is more complicated than mere communication

_{One person (not the person I'm talking about) comments that a soul is spiritual, not mental or physical, which really makes no sense to me, I thought spiritual WAS mental, but let's continue to my rant....}

Her reply?

As for language, animals do use language. Not speaking, but a form of language thats just as effective and involved. Deaf people don't speak, they use hand signals. Same as animals use body language. I know just by looking at Seven that he isn't in the mood to be picked up, just as I know by looking at someones face if they want to chat and be sociable or not. I don't think language is a good example of our difference to animals.

GAH! PEOPLE! Sign language is NOT "hand signals" so stop saying that it is, okay? . The only reason people say deaf people don't speak is because they like to create a false dichotomy where signing is not the same as speaking, and it IS.

Secondly, I already said that language is more complicated than communication. If you don't understand that, please ask instead of just skipping right over it.

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Language has grammar. Your rat's communication doesn't.

Language has to be learned. Your rat didn't learn it. All rats communicate in a similar fashion, unlike humans who all have different languages.

Language can be used to discuss things which aren't there, or don't exist, or abstract concepts. Your rat is not capable of participating in our discussion of souls.

Every part of a sentence in a language has meaning. That is not true for the utterances of your rat. These smaller units can be put together to form wholly new sentences, even ones that have never been said before. Again, you can't break down your rat's communication and put it together differently to say something new in rat.

I never said that rats can't communicate, in fact, I think that most animals communicate on a more sophisticated level than they're given credit for. What I said is that few animals, if any, seem to have anything resembling a language. I realize that this is a controversial subject, but if you wish to argue with me, please bring up something a little more substantial than "my rat communicates" because I already said that language and communication are not mutually equivilant.

And no, body language is NOT the same as language. When I say "no animal has body language but humans" you can talk. Until then, please read what I actually wrote instead of what you can debate