conuly | Still going back and forth in the comments on that school sleep schedule article

There's always somebody who insists on framing it as a moral issue, for some bizarre reason. Why, if those darn kids would only get to bed on time! Their parents spoil them!

One of them is amazingly persistent. When he saw spamming Poor Richard at me didn't work he tried "It's not that hard, just go to bed and turn out the light!" and when he saw that didn't work he... tried responding to what I actually said. Wonders never cease, he said something insightful.

I'd linked to a page on circadian sleep disorders, and he asked if there was a connection between them and artificial light. Which raises an interesting question that I'm not at all prepared to answer (and not especially inclined to answer, either, since he's still just being a pain) - how common are these sleep disorders in populations that don't use electric lighting? There are few of those populations left today, but I don't know if we can get any reliable data from the past, so they'll have to do. Does anybody know?

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

jenett

Non-24-Hour Sleep Wake Disorder is notably common in people who are blind (normally people who don't have much light perception) This page says more than 70%

Which sort of suggests that artificial light may actually have improved the situation for many people.

(There's also all that research about some cultures having a thing where you went to bed when it got dark out, but that everyone expected you'd be awake for 1-2 hours in the middle of the night, and might get up and talk quietly or have sex or other things that worked without much light, and then go back to bed again.)

From:

erinptah

Well, this is timely, given that in the past 24 hours I slept during exactly the hours kids are expected to be in school. (Bed at 7am, woke up at 3pm.)

Spent the waking hours working -- on moneymaking projects, even! -- but I suppose that's still a moral failing somehow.

From:

plicease

"This is the way that I did it when I was growing up why shouldn't you be any different"

From:

pink_halen

Early to rise
Early to bed.
Makes a man Healthy,
Wealthy, and Dead!

;-{p}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

From:

gatheringrivers

I can verify at MY end that when we had a week or so without power in the winter one year, our OWN sleep cycles DID naturally slide to wake-at-dawn and sleep-at-dark. Sample size n=2 - hubby and I both experienced the same circadian shift during that week without power.

Artificial lighting...Here's a few studies that might shed some light - pun intended - on things.

The effects of self-selected light-dark cycles and social constraints on human sleep and circadian timing: a modeling approach
"...artificial light induces a mismatch between sleep timing and circadian rhythmicity (‘social jet-lag’)..."

Consumer article at Wired

Circadian and Metabolic Effects of Light: Implications in Weight Homeostasis and Health
Removing or altering light/dark cycles, and artificial light, can affect metabolism.

Comparing the response to acute and chronic exposure to short wavelength lighting emitted from computer screens.
Artificial light at night has an immediate, detrimental, and consistent effect on sleep, circadian rhythm and next-day functional outcomes.

Sex differences in light sensitivity impact on brightness perception, vigilant attention and sleep in humans.
Men seem to be more sensitive to blue light, with higher brightness perception and faster reaction times. Taking biosex differences into account may play a role in the success or failure of individually-targeted light treatments. 16 men vs. 16 women.
I didn't know this before I found it tonight! So, I learned something! :)

Commentary on Bedroom Light Exposure at Night and the Incidence of Depressive Symptoms
Artificial light at night *may* predict an elevated incidence of depressive symptoms in older adults.

Non-Visual Photopigments Effects of Constant Light-Emitting Diode Light Exposure on the Inner Retina of Wistar Rats
Light pollution from artificial light in modern light *MAY* accelerate degenerative diseases, retinal degeneration or promote circadian de-syncing.

Regarding populations that don't use electric lighting, I don't know *personally*, but I can poke a farmer I usually buy meat from, since she deals with the "plain folk" and see if I can get a contact to ask.

There's been the odd news article here and there about towns/cities getting complaints from residents about blue-tinted street lighting giving them sleep issues, issues that they didn't have with the old yellow-based lighting.

I'm actually going to be looking at buying a few more "yellow" LED bulbs and a couple light strings for the basement, and I have a pair of Uvex "SCT orange" that I wear a couple hours before bed. (effectively, they are welder-grade "blue blockers". I've trusted Uvex tints for over a couple decades now, and I consider the SCT-Orange a worthwhile purchase.) I got a big pair because I have prescription glasses.

If you wear contacts, or don't need glasses, there's less clunky pairs available. :)

*edit: fixed missing HTML code*

Edited Date: 2017-11-16 12:12 am (UTC)

From:

gatheringrivers

*cackles* I love that!

From:

peristaltor

From what I remember from Jane Brox's good book Brilliant: The History of Artificial Lighting, not so much. Some people slept longer than others, which is no surprise.

As another poster mentioned, in deep winter months especially, people would turn in at dark and naturally wake up in the wee hours. It was expected, and even welcomed, as it was peaceful.

She did mention artificial lighting wreaking havoc with wildlife. I don't see why it wouldn't do the same with peeps.

From:

conuly

I thought it was Early to rise and late to bed, etc.

From:

wpadmirer

There is certainly evidence that the light from e-readers (like the Kindle Fire that have color), laptops and phones screws with sleep patterns. So I would think that the lack of dark would be a general problem.

Also, they have discovered that people who go out camping in undeveloped areas "reset" their sleep patterns and sleep improves.

From:

tassosss

Check out Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker, a sleep researcher. I'm not to far into the book yet, but looking up light in the index, he has a chapter on it (#9).

To sum up: The drive to sleep in our brain is driven by signals from natural light or lack thereof. When the sun goes down our brain is triggered to start signaling to go to sleep - melatonin released. Artificial light makes our brain think it's still day - no melatonin release. It makes it harder to fall asleep when you go to bed. Blue light is especially bad at inhibiting the onset of sleep, and can affect the quality.

From:

calimac

"It's not that hard, just go to bed and turn out the light!"

I wish it was that easy, I really do. If I actually am sleepy I don't even have to turn out the light. If I'm not, no amount of lying down in darkness will do.

From:

randomdreams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zw1Bli1jbc is hyper-relevant.

From:

randomdreams

I was going to make some pretty similar points/add some pretty similar links. Since this is mostly covered already, I will just point out https://justgetflux.com/ which (for people with android/linux/windows, but not mac) changes your screen color temperature to reduce blue before you sleep, specifically because of research indicating that blue light has a significant effect on melatonin levels in your body, and as a result, your sleep schedule.

Cool white LED's have the highest efficiency. (I can talk about this for hours, since it is specifically my job.) People tend to buy them because they have the lowest cost per unit of light emitted. Warm white lights tend to be more visually attractive, although that's probably mostly cultural: we're all used to yellowish light.

From:

conuly

Hah. And they forgot all the bitching and moaning (and yawning!) they did at the same time.

From:

gatheringrivers

iOS mobiles have natively supported a color-shifted screen for....at least 3 whole revisions of iOS now? Maybe 4?

Since that's for Windows, I'll definitely check that out! I've been itching to have something that - MORE easily - changes the monitor settings. (I can do it manually, but it's much argh and not as intuitive as I'd like especially when I'm on too little sleep.)

I tend to buy LED's - of any color - just because they use TINY amounts of power, even compared to the CFL's I swapped out all the incandescents for a decadeish back. I'm just looking for more of the "yellow" end of the spectrum these days for anything that's NOT the kitchen. (Because if I'm cooking I want to be AWAKE.)

From:

randomdreams

"Why isn't f.lux available in the Apple App Store?
We would love to make f.lux available for all iOS devices. To make f.lux work on iOS, we've had to go outside the bounds of what apps are normally allowed to do. Currently, iOS does not allow developers to access the Private APIs we need to make f.lux work on iOS.

Apple values their customers' feedback, so if you have a minute to let them know how f.lux has helped you, and that you'd like to see it available for all iOS devices, please send a note to:

iPhone feedback or iPad feedback.

f.lux for iPhone, iPad, and iPod touch
September 30, 2011

f.lux is now available for jailbroken iOS devices."

In theory, LED lights should run for 50,000 hours while maintaining roughly the same light output, and should last at least 150,000 hours if you accept significantly less illumination from them. However, the race to make led bulbs as cheap as incandescents were means that dramatic shortcuts in drive components limit the actual lifetime of the package to small fractions of what led's can do.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

We live near the Amish. They run largely on natural light, augmented by things like candlelight or oil lamps which are much dimmer than electric light. They work hard during the day and sleep hard at night. By the time children can toddle, they are learning easy chores such as feeding chickens or washing wagon wheels. By teen years, they're basically junior adults. They all seem quite healthy. They're engaged with the environment in ways that few people are anymore. The society is not without its flaws, but it does make it easy for folks to live a healthy life.

From:

xiphmont

I've been seeing sleep researchers for a long time as my sleep is (presumably genetically) broken. According to Dr. Thomas at Beth Israel, it's nearly impossible to get research grants to study sleep pathology in humans, only grants to study patients with completely normal sleep patterns. So we know very little that stands up to rigor about abnormal human sleep. Eg, 'Non-24 mostly/only happens in the blind' turns out to be entirely untrue. It's just that virtually no one has *looked* for it in the non-blind.

I'm a non-24. Based on studies in animal populations, in a sighted person it's a genetic mutation, incompletely dominant, that screws with ion channel reuptake timing. It whacks all the timers in your body (of which the circadian rhythm is only one). Another weird effect in about half the people who have it: It breaks your timed breathing reflex. You only breathe normally when awake.

My parents got sold hard on the 'just put him to bed earlier and enforce it without mercy!' line from doctors when I was a kid. Take a guess at how well that worked.

Edited Date: 2017-11-16 10:00 am (UTC)

From:

gatheringrivers

I constantly got told to "get (my) lazy ass up" at some stupidly early hour, even on the weekends.

That didn't work out too well either, long term. Good to know there's some genetic quirks that CAN be found, if only people look.

I don't suppose you have a link to the study you referenced? I'd like to show that to someone else if I can. :)

From:

gatheringrivers

Dimmable LED's are great for that - just more expensive, and sometimes hard to find depending on the store.

I've also noted that some "(#)W equivalent" bulbs are inherently LESS bright than others - someone at the local DIY store commented on that, and I've been more mindful of that since, depending on the intended use for the bulbs.

From:

xiphmont

Sadly, I have no documentation. I'm going only by what Dr. Thomas told me verbally. I tried to get some references out of one of his assistants, but haven't succeeded yet. I'll keep trying :-)

From:

elainegrey

Actually, i've been using f.lux from https://justgetflux.com/ on my mac for years. I love it.

From:

elainegrey

Re iOS -- the hardware needs to support the color shift. 8(

From:

thewayne

My wife is an astronomer, and their normal work schedule is two hours before sundown to an hour after sunrise. Sometimes they get lucky and their second half observer quits early and they can close the dome early, but there are still instrument fills (with liquid nitrogen), night logs, etc. It makes for a VERY long shift in the winter! But they can't maintain that schedule when they're off-work, because there's too many interactions they have to do in the real world.

Sucks to be them.

I don't know how my wife does it, and I've known her for 14 years. She's working this weekend, and right now she's keeping a night sleeping schedule. But today she has to go in to the observatory to work on the APOLLO lunar laser system, it had a computer crash and is having a heat problem, I may be going to help her with it, if I get the chocolate cake done and some work on my term paper started.

It can't be good for your health, yanking your sleep schedule around like that. Living at high altitude like we do has a number of risks mostly due to the increased exposure to radiation: faster cataract formation, higher risk of your thyroid getting clobbered, and hypertension. But your sleep schedule flipping back and forth? Can't be good.

From:

conuly

Oh, nobody ever seems to believe it might affect people. Except this guy, apparently.

From:

conuly

I know!

From:

conuly

It's just that virtually no one has *looked* for it in the non-blind.

And surprise, surprise, as you no doubt know - but others might not! - it overlaps with other neurological differences, like autism. (Which is how I first heard of it this year.)

From:

conuly

Even if it's much later, I'd like to see it too.

From:

conuly

She must love her job. I don't know if it makes it physiologically easier though.

From:

chanter1944

Phase delays are also not uncommon. Often a blindness thing - so in my case - but presumably not always.

From:

raino

Oh I think there must be millions of people in poor rural areas all around the globe still without artificial light. Not long ago I read an interesting article about installing electricity to rural Indian villages, particularly for lighting. Getting one streetlight in the middle of a village had improved kid's school success, provided a place for community socialization after hard day's work and generally made a huge positive impact on the quality of life. But the article said nothing about sleep rhythms!

From:

gatheringrivers

All I know is iOS has an option to color shift the screen to the "more yellow" or "more blue" ends of the spectrum, it's been there for a few revisions, and that it is a native option with no extra apps or fiddling needed.

I do not know whether Apple pokes the hardware themselves or not.

From:

siderea

iOS mobiles have natively supported a color-shifted screen for....at least 3 whole revisions of iOS now? Maybe 4?

~~Wait, what does that mean, practically? Can a user just push a button to have the screen color-shift? Or is it an exercise in calibrating the color balance of the screen, somewhere in the settings?~~

ETA: Nvrmd, just discovered Night Shift.

Edited Date: 2017-11-17 07:07 am (UTC)

From:

siderea

Another happy Mac f.lux user here!

From:

siderea

According to Dr. Thomas at Beth Israel

Robert Joseph Thomas, MD? Has he been helpful to you?

I'm a non-24. Based on studies in animal populations, in a sighted person it's a genetic mutation, incompletely dominant, that screws with ion channel reuptake timing.

Huh. ~~Do you happen to have any pointers to this research?~~ [ETA: sorry, just saw the comments above.] It is pertinent to my interests.

I absolutely willing to believe in a genetic anomaly, but a dozen donuts says that anything in your head that can be broken by an error in protein synthesis can also be broken by environmental causes, such as infectious agents, neurotoxins, malnutrition, etc, and that there is probably multiple versions of non-24 (and of delayed phase, and of advanced phase).

You only breathe normally when awake.

So what is your breathing like when you're asleep?

Take a guess at how well that worked.

My bedtime through grade school was 8pm. Yet somehow I wound up developing opinions about Johnny Carson's late show monologues before I got to jr high.

I'm pretty sure conditioning me to lie in a bed in a dark room wide awake for four+ hours every night before I fell asleep made things worse.

Edited Date: 2017-11-17 07:35 am (UTC)

From:

elainegrey

My iPad is too old to support the feature.

From:

conuly

I'm pretty sure conditioning me to lie in a bed in a dark room wide awake for four+ hours every night before I fell asleep made things worse.

Yes, I think people are advised to get out of bed if they can't sleep and do something restful elsewhere, like read or clean, because they should associate bed with sleep, not with staying awake.

From:

gatheringrivers

Ah, that's a different problem then. :(

From:

gatheringrivers

Your journal seems interesting. Do you mind if I add you? I've got a public "intro of sorts" post on mine if you want to see that before answering.

From:

nodrog

I've been trying to find the article you mentioned. May I have a link to it?

[I'm curious - I'm the only one I know who ever quotes Poor Richard. [See “The World's First Blog”]

From:

conuly

http://theatln.tc/2zAnG8c

From:

conuly

Also: you are most definitely not the only person to say "Early to bed, early to rise".

From:

nodrog

Fish & Visitors stink in 3 days.

Of the Diseases this Year:

This Year the Stone-blind shall see but very little; the Deaf shall hear
but poorly; and the Dumb shan’t speak very plain. And it’s much, if my Dame
Bridget talks at all this Year. Whole Flocks, Herds and Droves of Sheep,
Swine and Oxen, Cocks and Hens, Ducks and Drakes, Geese and Ganders shall
go to Pot; but the Mortality will not be altogether so great among Cats,
Dogs and Horses. As for old Age, ’twill be incurable this Year, because of
the Years past. And towards the Fall some People will be seiz’d with an
unaccountable Inclination to roast and eat their own Ears: Should this be
call’d Madness, Doctors? I think not.—But the worst Disease of all will be
a certain most horrid, dreadful, malignant, catching, perverse and odious
Malady, almost epidemical, insomuch that many shall run Mad upon it; I
quake for very Fear when I think on’t; for I assure you very few will
escape this Disease; which is called by the learned Albumazar, Lacko’mony.

-----------------------

I get a bang out of ol' Ben.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Poor_Richard%27s_Almanack

Edited Date: 2017-11-18 04:36 pm (UTC)

From:

xiphmont

I'll try to remember!
In the meantime, I'm mostly hoping for some progress.

From:

xiphmont

Not at all, feel free.

From:

xiphmont

Dr Robert Joseph Thomas, yes. I've just started seeing him this year, so we've only dug into collecting data thus far.

I absolutely willing to believe in a genetic anomaly, but a dozen donuts says that anything in your head that can be broken by an error in protein synthesis can also be broken by environmental causes, such as infectious agents, neurotoxins, malnutrition, etc, and that there is probably multiple versions of non-24 (and of delayed phase, and of advanced phase).

I doubt non-24 is single-cause, but I'm taking the genetic abnormality cue from the good doctor, who explicitly said it was his guess, though it was just a guess, and that body-clock timer mutations that have these exact effects exist and are studied in lab critters. He mostly talked about hamsters.

So what is your breathing like when you're asleep?

The breathing timer regulation is off and tends to stall, most often at sleep onset. I simply stop breathing. Eventually the suffocation reflex triggers and rouses me enough to take a breath.

When I don't stop breathing, the observed effect is periodic breathing where the CO2 regulation pathways enter an underdamped feedback oscillation. Us motorcycle folks call it a 'tank-slapper'.

My bedtime through grade school was 8pm.

Mine was as early as 6:30. :-(

From:

siderea

Thanks for getting back to me!

The breathing timer regulation is off and tends to stall, most often at sleep onset. I simply stop breathing. Eventually the suffocation reflex triggers and rouses me enough to take a breath.

What's that like for you, subjectively? Do you startle fully awake? How do you ever get to deeper levels of sleep?

If I were talking to someone who didn't know they had this condition, how would they describe it?

When I don't stop breathing, the observed effect is periodic breathing where the CO2 regulation pathways enter an underdamped feedback oscillation. Us motorcycle folks call it a 'tank-slapper'.

A tank-slapper involves an oscillation of something rather more than 1Hz, but I can't make sense of describing any sort of breathing pattern anomoly as oscillating that fast. Most breaths take more than a second.

So what is that periodic breathing like? For you? Are you aware of it? Are awake people witnessing your sleeping able to observe it? Is this something only detectable with instruments?

And more importantly, does this affect you in a negative way? Do you experience hypoxia and medical issues secondary to that?

From:

siderea

Oh, and the internet seems to be saying that Dr. Thomas is a pulmonologist, yes? (I didn't even know that sleep pulmonology was a thing. Makes sense with your condition!) Is he just studying you, or is he coming up with treatments? If the latter, is he actually trying to rememdy the hypothesized genetic error by pharmacotherapy or similar, or is he trying to support your breathing mechanically, or...?