Before we start this (and you know I love controversy!).. I am *not* debating my views.

[conuly]

Sorry. If you wish to know my feelings on the dairy industry, there is one site on my links list which should make the point very clear, even if you never visit it.

I just have a question. Got that? No arguments over the merits of consuming dairy products or alternate sources of calcium or anything. Just a question.

How could anybody reasonably say that people have to drink milk to be healthy? No species could possibly evolve with a necessity for the milk of another species, or even their own species after a certain age. That's insane! We can't escape our evolution, and we haven't had domesticated animals long enough for us to evolve to need them. So, how is it justified to say we need milk? I'm actually curious here, not argumentative.

Comments

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

We don't need milk, but you're right. We can't escape our evolution.

We no longer eat bone marrow. Many of us don't eat the vegetables that would give us calcium. That's why milk is supposed to be a required nutrient. It's really not (just ask any vegan that knows how to eat). Humans are hunter-gatherers, but since we're not running around we've had to make infinite concessions to the supposedly delicate system of our nutrition.

Also-- humans live longer. We've evolved to only have a lifespan of 40 years. We haven't changed to live longer due to evolution, but thanks to medicine and generally living better. So we have slightly different requirements than we did way back when. Women need more calcium because osteoporosis sets in. Trust me, during the paleolithic era and the agrarian revolution women did NOT worry about osteoporosis. So we haven't really evolved to need milk. We've evolved to need certain nutrients found in milk.

So yeah, we don't NEED milk, it's just a very convenient source of necessary nutrients.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

I need to sound trying to sound intelligent at seven in the morning. But I think I still basically said what I wanted to.

[squittycat.livejournal.com]

It's also a very convenient source of DEATH!

I wouldn't say that we evolved to need nutrients found in milk; more like some of us evolved to tolerate it. The majority of the world's population is still lactose intolerant, because after infancy, we can chew our food and don't need our mothers to preprocess it for us any more. So the body stops making lactase, plain and simple.

And there are many studies that show that milk actually can contribute to osteoperosis. Ever notice how they stopped running "Milk. It does a body good?" Well, that's because it doesn't. Because ironically, the proteins in milk strip more calcium from your body than you absorb by drinking it.

Hi Conuly, remember me? :)

[squittycat.livejournal.com]

Oh, and incidentally, I have two friends from SI who don't drink milk or use dairy and aren't vegan. In fact, they both eat lots of meat, so they're nowhere near vegan. One is severely allergic to it, and the other did his senior thesis on the health risks associated with milk consumption. I'm not sure if he stopped drinking milk before or after he did that paper though. If you've ever in your travels run into either Adam Borrell or Jay Flynn, tell them Dan Dadap says hi. :)

[conuly]

*grins* Will do!

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

You know... I looked around that site and you might want to find a better one. That particular one reeks of "ban dihydrogen monoxide!" type fanaticism. Anyone that says "we're bringing the truth and we're branded bad people, see, see, look at these other guys that were considered loony!" doesn't have a solid case. Period.

I'm not starting an argument, but I just wanted to say that website, however good a point it's trying to make, completely invalidates itself as bunk. So even if you've seen these results elsewhere, I wouldn't trust anything it has to say unless it can be backed up with another source.

[georgiapeachy.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that site is a little bit fanatic in my opinion, I see they have a valid point, but a lot of their things seem like scare tactics. I find the things about flo-jos death being because of milk esspecially offensive. I'm sure you can find problems with anything, you could start a NOTAPPLES website that could have studies on all the pesticides that are on apples, and all the types of rot and worms apples have. A NOTWHEAT website would have all the stuff about how many people suffer from problems associated with wheat allergies they don't even know they have, how harvesting wheat uses poorly treated migrant workers and how it kills innocent animals living in the fields, how wheat contains traces of poisons etc.

[squittycat.livejournal.com]

It is a bit over-the-top, yes. I do happen to agree with what they have to say, but my opinion is, perhaps, a bit biased (Yes, I'm vegan.)

Regardless, if the question is "can people not consume dairy products and still be healthy?" my answer would be definitely, Yes. Because there are entire communities of people who don't practice dairy consumption, and are healthy. Having lived in such a community, I can say for certain that dairy does not contribute to good health.

[conuly]

The site is fanatic, no doubt about it :) But everything they say is backed up with studies, which they reference. You can look up the individual studies yourself.

Rock on!

[leolapyre.livejournal.com]

I'm not a vegan, but I'm slowly trying to become one. Yes, I have been trying to avoid the evil dairy. Go soy milk!

Re: Rock on!

[conuly]

I don't eat much dairy... in general. But it sneaks in where you don't expect! *sighs* I'm going to work harder on removing it from my diet in the spring, winter is a bad time for me to be messing with my diet.

[fjorab-teke.livejournal.com]

I think you're right.

And now, there are TONS of calcium supplements that don't involve dairy.

If I could find a soy milk that was easy to obtain and didn't make me wanna hurl....

The American meat and dairy industries sicken me, and I continually debate if I would be able to go vegan in a healthy way to take one more person off the consumer list. My weakness for certain meats and other foods would take some very radical changes for me.

[conuly]

Forget "supplements". Try dark leafy greens. Do you realize that the WHO reccomends about 1/3 as much calcium as the FDA? Because, of course, the WHO doesn't expect most of your calcium to come from dairy.

Even if you can't go vegan, you can reduce the amount of meat/dairy/eggs you eat. Try only eating animal products once a day, as part of a side dish. Then switch it to once every other day, or twice a week. That's not as strong a moral stand, but it's still better than eating meat every day, at every meal, as the focus of every meal.

[squittycat.livejournal.com]

I've found that the Silk and Vitasoy brands are most palatable to people who prefer the taste of cow milk, and both are available at many grocery stores. Make sure you get the Vitasoy that's marketed to "Westerners" ... the type marketed to Asians (You'll know it from the square boxy-box with Chinese markings all over to it) is probably of the type that "makes you wanna hurl." Remember, though, that many people feel like hurling when they drink cow milk! Anyway, Vitasoy in the tall, milk-carton-looking carton is nice and creamy; give it a try. Again, Silk is fine too, but there's a rumor that it's manufactured by the Dairy Industry so that they can continue to make money off people who don't buy dairy products. Dunno if it's true... I don't drink the stuff anyway. :)

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

We don't need milk, but you're right. We can't escape our evolution.

We no longer eat bone marrow. Many of us don't eat the vegetables that would give us calcium. That's why milk is supposed to be a required nutrient. It's really not (just ask any vegan that knows how to eat). Humans are hunter-gatherers, but since we're not running around we've had to make infinite concessions to the supposedly delicate system of our nutrition.

Also-- humans live longer. We've evolved to only have a lifespan of 40 years. We haven't changed to live longer due to evolution, but thanks to medicine and generally living better. So we have slightly different requirements than we did way back when. Women need more calcium because osteoporosis sets in. Trust me, during the paleolithic era and the agrarian revolution women did NOT worry about osteoporosis. So we haven't really evolved to need milk. We've evolved to need certain nutrients found in milk.

So yeah, we don't NEED milk, it's just a very convenient source of necessary nutrients.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

I need to sound trying to sound intelligent at seven in the morning. But I think I still basically said what I wanted to.

[squittycat.livejournal.com]

It's also a very convenient source of DEATH!

I wouldn't say that we evolved to need nutrients found in milk; more like some of us evolved to tolerate it. The majority of the world's population is still lactose intolerant, because after infancy, we can chew our food and don't need our mothers to preprocess it for us any more. So the body stops making lactase, plain and simple.

And there are many studies that show that milk actually can contribute to osteoperosis. Ever notice how they stopped running "Milk. It does a body good?" Well, that's because it doesn't. Because ironically, the proteins in milk strip more calcium from your body than you absorb by drinking it.

Hi Conuly, remember me? :)

[squittycat.livejournal.com]

Oh, and incidentally, I have two friends from SI who don't drink milk or use dairy and aren't vegan. In fact, they both eat lots of meat, so they're nowhere near vegan. One is severely allergic to it, and the other did his senior thesis on the health risks associated with milk consumption. I'm not sure if he stopped drinking milk before or after he did that paper though. If you've ever in your travels run into either Adam Borrell or Jay Flynn, tell them Dan Dadap says hi. :)

[conuly]

*grins* Will do!

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

You know... I looked around that site and you might want to find a better one. That particular one reeks of "ban dihydrogen monoxide!" type fanaticism. Anyone that says "we're bringing the truth and we're branded bad people, see, see, look at these other guys that were considered loony!" doesn't have a solid case. Period.

I'm not starting an argument, but I just wanted to say that website, however good a point it's trying to make, completely invalidates itself as bunk. So even if you've seen these results elsewhere, I wouldn't trust anything it has to say unless it can be backed up with another source.

[georgiapeachy.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that site is a little bit fanatic in my opinion, I see they have a valid point, but a lot of their things seem like scare tactics. I find the things about flo-jos death being because of milk esspecially offensive. I'm sure you can find problems with anything, you could start a NOTAPPLES website that could have studies on all the pesticides that are on apples, and all the types of rot and worms apples have. A NOTWHEAT website would have all the stuff about how many people suffer from problems associated with wheat allergies they don't even know they have, how harvesting wheat uses poorly treated migrant workers and how it kills innocent animals living in the fields, how wheat contains traces of poisons etc.

[squittycat.livejournal.com]

It is a bit over-the-top, yes. I do happen to agree with what they have to say, but my opinion is, perhaps, a bit biased (Yes, I'm vegan.)

Regardless, if the question is "can people not consume dairy products and still be healthy?" my answer would be definitely, Yes. Because there are entire communities of people who don't practice dairy consumption, and are healthy. Having lived in such a community, I can say for certain that dairy does not contribute to good health.

[conuly]

The site is fanatic, no doubt about it :) But everything they say is backed up with studies, which they reference. You can look up the individual studies yourself.

Rock on!

[leolapyre.livejournal.com]

I'm not a vegan, but I'm slowly trying to become one. Yes, I have been trying to avoid the evil dairy. Go soy milk!

Re: Rock on!

[conuly]

I don't eat much dairy... in general. But it sneaks in where you don't expect! *sighs* I'm going to work harder on removing it from my diet in the spring, winter is a bad time for me to be messing with my diet.

[fjorab-teke.livejournal.com]

I think you're right.

And now, there are TONS of calcium supplements that don't involve dairy.

If I could find a soy milk that was easy to obtain and didn't make me wanna hurl....

The American meat and dairy industries sicken me, and I continually debate if I would be able to go vegan in a healthy way to take one more person off the consumer list. My weakness for certain meats and other foods would take some very radical changes for me.

[conuly]

Forget "supplements". Try dark leafy greens. Do you realize that the WHO reccomends about 1/3 as much calcium as the FDA? Because, of course, the WHO doesn't expect most of your calcium to come from dairy.

Even if you can't go vegan, you can reduce the amount of meat/dairy/eggs you eat. Try only eating animal products once a day, as part of a side dish. Then switch it to once every other day, or twice a week. That's not as strong a moral stand, but it's still better than eating meat every day, at every meal, as the focus of every meal.