Revenge of the Pledge

[conuly]

I finally got back to it. This subject obsesses me, sorry about that. First, an interesting link and then the irritating essay.

On one thread about the Pledge of Allegience, somebody posted the neat little statement that "it's not a religious thing, it's about patriotism". Patriotism. Now, I may be strange, but I always thought that the best way to show pa... wait, better define what I mean. Ahem.

M-w.com defines it as love for or devotion to one's country. It is distinct from jingoism in that it doesn't have to involve other countries or "belligerant foreign policies", and nationalism in that it doesn't specify that you place your nation "above all others" and your interests above the interests of other nations. It should go without saying that much of contemporary "patriotism" seems to be one of the two latter feelings instead. To my mind, patriotism means caring about your country enough that you want to make it better. Some people apparently feel that patriotism is best taught and shown by what children learn by rote. (Side note, there's something interesting, adults are rarely called upon to recite the pledge, only children. Does that mean they are less patriotic than their kids?) I had thought that it was best shown by helping out your community, but apparently I was wrong. I am still uncertain as to whether or not the pledge should be recited when there are so many other options.

1. The Pledge of Allegiance

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

2. Miranda Warning

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney, and for an attorney to be present during questioning. If you can not afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you.

3. The American's Creed

I believe in the United States of America as a government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed, a democracy in a republic, a sovereign Nation of many sovereign States; a perfect union, one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice, and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.

"I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it, to support its Constitution, to obey its laws, to respect its flag, and to defend it against all enemies.

4. The First Amendment

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

5. Declaration of Independance

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Hell, if I tried a bit harder I could come up with a list of good quotes that could just be added on to... a new quote every week or so.

Now, I suspect most people do not have half of these documents memorized. If the assertion that reciting a patriotic document makes one a patriotic person is correct, than by my reciting more important patriotic documents I should be seen as a more patriotic person, right? Riiiight?

Obviously not.

Well, possibly it was meant that meaning the pledge makes one patriotic. In order for a child to mean the pledge, they'd first have to understand it. It is generally well-accepted that children often misrecite the pledge because the words have no meaning to them. This is often seen as "funny" instead of "sad". For a five or six year old, what make the pledge more patriotic than: I bagged a genie in a bag...."? Older students do, I hope, understand the meaning behind the words, but by that time they recite out of habit instead of actual feeling. If that is patriotism, then I have been misinformed.

I do have a point here, and the point is that the pledge is just stupid. It shouldn't not be recited because it's religious, or because it infringes on the rights of others, or because it's a form of indoctrination (though those are all good reasons), but because it's the stupidest thing we could recite, and it has no meaning to those saying it, and it does nothing but waste a minute or two out of every day. Rather than recite a pledge, it would be better to spend that time analyzing relevant quotes, such as the one by Ben Franklin:

"Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security"....

I could start a whole 'nother rant on that, but I won't. I'm tired. And possibly tedious.

Comments

[literalgirl.livejournal.com]

Actually, you are brilliant.

[conuly]

So brilliant I forgot to close my tags... *is still flattered* Why do people say that anyway? I mostly just c+p'd! I'm actually curious, not irritated, just in a minor bad mood about grades.

[literalgirl.livejournal.com]

Well, the way it works for me is this. I read what you assemble, and I read your analysis, or driving point, or observations, and I note that you have brought together compelling data from other sources that work well together and/or perfectly support/illustrate your aforementioned point. I just like it!

I disagree somewhat on the issue of whether grammar/spelling matter at all, but I have a post of my own on that percolating in the background, and when it's ready it'll pop out and you can critique me then. ;-) (Not that *my* grammar or spelling are perfect, and my poor typing makes my actual spelling prowess irrelevent!)

[conuly]

I actually am a snob when it comes to grammar/spelling, the difference is that I know it's irrational and strive to overcome the most ridiculous parts of it... if I can't understand you, though, you'll hear about it. I really can't read most misspelled words, so that is ALWAYS important to me.

I've always been fascinated by linguistics, that's why I have my unique viewpoint on grammar.

[literalgirl.livejournal.com]

Ahhh. It may be the case we have more in comon in this area than I thought. ;-)

I only had any idea of what you might think based upon something a while ago that you wrote about judging folks on those issues - and I agree, judging them solely on that is lame. However, I certainly think they have their place.

The post I have running in the background waiting to be done actually began with a thread on a journal in which a person was accused of being an elitist and a bad person for *following* grammar rules. They said that confomring to grammar rules was like being a racist. Really bugged me. I thought it was like saying "driving on the agreed-upon side of the road is being racist". :-) Personally, I ike the social contract that makes us all (in general) follow the rules of driving. Just an example of the thoughts that are rolling around back there in my head.

[conuly]

They might have a point. One popularly used example of "bad grammar" is AAVE or ebonics for short. Since it tends to be used by the Black community, some people have seen derision of this as denegrating blacks in general.

It is important to realize that AAVE of course has its own rules which differ only from standard english but are consistent within the dialect.

But were you simply talking the way you prefer, or saying (truthfully) that less prestigious dialects seem ignorant? If that's what you were doing, the person is a puerile moron. If you were actually trying to impose your views on him/her OR saying that it's always inappropriate to speak in that dialect, then I'd say you're incorrect. But I don't think you're that sort of person.

Wow. That's the thorniest bit of text I've ever typed. And I haven't the slightest clue how to say that like a real person. Sorry 'bout that.

[literalgirl.livejournal.com]

S'ok. I'm Aspie - I don't take things like hat the way NTs might. :-)

Actually, in the case I described, I wasn't commenting on anyone's grammar. I was reading a thread on some 'zine site in which one writer was being accused of being elitist etc. by another. I had no opinions except when the person claimed that CARING about grammar/spelling at all *automatically* made the person a racist. I disagree with that point.

And I think within a given community wherein the standards are agreed upon, then there is no problem. But of course if I, a Canadian by birth, were to go into someone American's journal and harangue them for leaving off the "u" in colour (and many other words), and I was being serious, not just fooling around, I think I'd be out of line.

:-)

[literalgirl.livejournal.com]

See, my bad typing got me again there. :-)

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

Actually, you have a very valid point.

The minute I was old enough to understand the pledge, I haven't said it except when I'm forced to. Since I'm not foreign, my not saying the pledge is unpatriotic. I find a blind recitation of gabbly-dee-gook to be even more unpatriotic. If you love your country, it's there. Period.

I do love America. Because I don't have to say the pledge and I can loudly announce that our shit stinks too.

[conuly]

I love the concepts of America, but the reality bothers me more than it ought. *le sigh*

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

Sad to say, isn't it?

But then, the concept of Marxism isn't too shabby either.

[conuly]

My daddy was a Marxist.

It's important to note that Marxism was never actually tried as an economic system, and even more important to realize that Marx never said what would happen after capitalism fell, only that a new system would arise. He never specified how that system would work.

[velvetchamber.livejournal.com]

This pledge... you speak as if that is something that you have to recite daily, is that so?

[conuly]

In many public schools.

Technically, you have the right not only to refrain from saying the pledge but from standing during it, but they go out of their way not to tell you this, and to deny it when you call 'em on it.

[velvetchamber.livejournal.com]

There are so many things about your country that I do not comprehend. How nearly everyone is socially obliged to be patriotic (in your sense of the word) but also legally excused from it, and in whom patriotism manifests and shows, it manifests as what you describe as nationalism. It gives itself off as being the one that made democracy (even though the French really did it), and it prides itself of being a country where everyone has equal chances, but by that it seems as if they mean that nearly everyone has equal chances, the equal chances of nothing, and only a select few have the chances for something that really is something. It also prizes it's right for free speech, but that right for free speech has gone in two directions, one is that because everyone has the right to speak up and you can not offend anyone, you can't really speak up, and the other is that everyone will shout out what they have to say, all in discord and it just turns into clamour that everyone ignores. To a person that stands outside your country it seems like the most chaotic and infernal place to live, equally scary to me as the middle of Afghanistan, only scary on different grounds. It feels as if everyone tells you that you have got all the rights in the world, but essentially it looks as if you have none.

I'm just confused now.

[literalgirl.livejournal.com]

Actually, you are brilliant.

[conuly]

So brilliant I forgot to close my tags... *is still flattered* Why do people say that anyway? I mostly just c+p'd! I'm actually curious, not irritated, just in a minor bad mood about grades.

[literalgirl.livejournal.com]

Well, the way it works for me is this. I read what you assemble, and I read your analysis, or driving point, or observations, and I note that you have brought together compelling data from other sources that work well together and/or perfectly support/illustrate your aforementioned point. I just like it!

I disagree somewhat on the issue of whether grammar/spelling matter at all, but I have a post of my own on that percolating in the background, and when it's ready it'll pop out and you can critique me then. ;-) (Not that *my* grammar or spelling are perfect, and my poor typing makes my actual spelling prowess irrelevent!)

[conuly]

I actually am a snob when it comes to grammar/spelling, the difference is that I know it's irrational and strive to overcome the most ridiculous parts of it... if I can't understand you, though, you'll hear about it. I really can't read most misspelled words, so that is ALWAYS important to me.

I've always been fascinated by linguistics, that's why I have my unique viewpoint on grammar.

[literalgirl.livejournal.com]

Ahhh. It may be the case we have more in comon in this area than I thought. ;-)

I only had any idea of what you might think based upon something a while ago that you wrote about judging folks on those issues - and I agree, judging them solely on that is lame. However, I certainly think they have their place.

The post I have running in the background waiting to be done actually began with a thread on a journal in which a person was accused of being an elitist and a bad person for *following* grammar rules. They said that confomring to grammar rules was like being a racist. Really bugged me. I thought it was like saying "driving on the agreed-upon side of the road is being racist". :-) Personally, I ike the social contract that makes us all (in general) follow the rules of driving. Just an example of the thoughts that are rolling around back there in my head.

[conuly]

They might have a point. One popularly used example of "bad grammar" is AAVE or ebonics for short. Since it tends to be used by the Black community, some people have seen derision of this as denegrating blacks in general.

It is important to realize that AAVE of course has its own rules which differ only from standard english but are consistent within the dialect.

But were you simply talking the way you prefer, or saying (truthfully) that less prestigious dialects seem ignorant? If that's what you were doing, the person is a puerile moron. If you were actually trying to impose your views on him/her OR saying that it's always inappropriate to speak in that dialect, then I'd say you're incorrect. But I don't think you're that sort of person.

Wow. That's the thorniest bit of text I've ever typed. And I haven't the slightest clue how to say that like a real person. Sorry 'bout that.

[literalgirl.livejournal.com]

S'ok. I'm Aspie - I don't take things like hat the way NTs might. :-)

Actually, in the case I described, I wasn't commenting on anyone's grammar. I was reading a thread on some 'zine site in which one writer was being accused of being elitist etc. by another. I had no opinions except when the person claimed that CARING about grammar/spelling at all *automatically* made the person a racist. I disagree with that point.

And I think within a given community wherein the standards are agreed upon, then there is no problem. But of course if I, a Canadian by birth, were to go into someone American's journal and harangue them for leaving off the "u" in colour (and many other words), and I was being serious, not just fooling around, I think I'd be out of line.

:-)

[literalgirl.livejournal.com]

See, my bad typing got me again there. :-)

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

Actually, you have a very valid point.

The minute I was old enough to understand the pledge, I haven't said it except when I'm forced to. Since I'm not foreign, my not saying the pledge is unpatriotic. I find a blind recitation of gabbly-dee-gook to be even more unpatriotic. If you love your country, it's there. Period.

I do love America. Because I don't have to say the pledge and I can loudly announce that our shit stinks too.

[conuly]

I love the concepts of America, but the reality bothers me more than it ought. *le sigh*

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

Sad to say, isn't it?

But then, the concept of Marxism isn't too shabby either.

[conuly]

My daddy was a Marxist.

It's important to note that Marxism was never actually tried as an economic system, and even more important to realize that Marx never said what would happen after capitalism fell, only that a new system would arise. He never specified how that system would work.

[velvetchamber.livejournal.com]

This pledge... you speak as if that is something that you have to recite daily, is that so?

[conuly]

In many public schools.

Technically, you have the right not only to refrain from saying the pledge but from standing during it, but they go out of their way not to tell you this, and to deny it when you call 'em on it.

[velvetchamber.livejournal.com]

There are so many things about your country that I do not comprehend. How nearly everyone is socially obliged to be patriotic (in your sense of the word) but also legally excused from it, and in whom patriotism manifests and shows, it manifests as what you describe as nationalism. It gives itself off as being the one that made democracy (even though the French really did it), and it prides itself of being a country where everyone has equal chances, but by that it seems as if they mean that nearly everyone has equal chances, the equal chances of nothing, and only a select few have the chances for something that really is something. It also prizes it's right for free speech, but that right for free speech has gone in two directions, one is that because everyone has the right to speak up and you can not offend anyone, you can't really speak up, and the other is that everyone will shout out what they have to say, all in discord and it just turns into clamour that everyone ignores. To a person that stands outside your country it seems like the most chaotic and infernal place to live, equally scary to me as the middle of Afghanistan, only scary on different grounds. It feels as if everyone tells you that you have got all the rights in the world, but essentially it looks as if you have none.

I'm just confused now.